Iraq Pictures

[mightyzim]

War is hell for everybody involved, the soldiers and the civilians.
I think we can only hope the country is less fucked up than when we went in there. Somehow I don't think it will be

[Jamesac]

But yeah, it's mostly depressing. That first dead kid on page 1 was a bit of a surprise, and after that it only got worse. We hear about and know that's what's happening in any war, not just over there but at any random war spot on the planet, but we don't get the pictures that often.

I definitely agree about the context thing, though. We don't know what happened, or is happening, in the photos, all we can do is try to fill in the blanks. Dead people, a random leg, a burning tank, etc. That it's a bad situation is obvious, but it's still only a small slice of whatever is really going on. About all I can say is that it shouldn't have had to happen at all.

James

[Bog]

The thought that occours is:

Before we went in, none of these pictures would have made it out, or if they had they'd have been D Noticed in the name of international relations.

If nothing else, we can see what's happenning now. That's got to be worth something. If nothing else, imagery like this stops these people being "some Arabs a quarter-world away" and turns them into people in the eyes of the Masses.

Would that everyone could stop forgetting that everyone, everywhere is a person, this sort of things would stop happenning.

[koworld]

The thought that occours is:

Before we went in, none of these pictures would have made it out, or if they had they'd have been D Noticed in the name of international relations.

If nothing else, we can see what's happenning now. That's got to be worth something. If nothing else, imagery like this stops these people being "some Arabs a quarter-world away" and turns them into people in the eyes of the Masses.

Would that everyone could stop forgetting that everyone, everywhere is a person, this sort of things would stop happenning.

It's like those diplomats said in their letter to Idiot-Boy: We're going about things in the wrong way, yes getting rid of Saddam was a noble cause but no - storming into Faluja killing indescriminantly was utterly indefensible.

And that's the point - the American military seems to have learned none of the lessons of Vietnam. They are still killing civillians and then saying that it wouldn't have happened if the enemy played ball and came out for a proper fight instead of using gurilla tactics.

This gung-ho attitude is the seat of the problem. Jesus, the Brits fought all over the middle east and north africa in the 1940s and early 1950s without losing the respect of the arab world. Or at least without invoking it's hatred.

I'm sorry to say this, but the Americans are the problem in this world right now. And that's a bloody shame because it's not all Americans (or even, I suspect, a majority) who are influencing US foriegn policy. You'll earn the world's respect if you unseat Bush and elect a man like John Kerry.

[aureole]

I think the combination of the two sets of photos (mass graves and post-war) is amazingly poignant and unbelievably depressing.

[Guest]

The aim now seems to be to make Iraq unliveable as a self governing democracy. Permanent US control required. Or perhaps I'm just being cynical

[Curvespace]

It's easy to blame the Americans and I join you in doing so. I really do not feel, however, that we are any better. We (Brits) did quite a good job of creating these problems when we were over there in the forties and fifties.

Most critisisms aimed at the US can be equally applied to us. We spent the 80's saturating the Middle East (including Mr Hussein) with our weapons and technology, knowing the instability it would bring. It's only now that we can move in to 'reap the rewards'. Ho-hum....

I think in order for us to be truly scathing of American foreign policy we should first get out of bed with them.

[Guest]

I think in order for us to be truly scathing of American foreign policy we should first get out of bed with them.

Totally agree. Unfortunately our elected leaders are in bed with them, and nothing we can do will change that, without changing the people involved.

[Bog]

We could all spam our MPs demanding a vote of no-confidence in Tony. Worked against the Thatcher regime, IIRC.

[Guest]

We could all spam our MPs demanding a vote of no-confidence in Tony. Worked against the Thatcher regime, IIRC.

The problem is that these days, if you do your campaigning by email, it is completely ignored. cf. ID cards, GM crops, illegal invasions, etc

[Darkflame]

Before we went in, none of these pictures would have made it out, or if they had they'd have been D Noticed in the name of international relations.

Very good point.

Yes, purhapes people that think these are bad should go and get some of those pictures of what it was like before the war too.
The torture videos sold in Saddam city would be a good start.

The idea that "oh, yes, it was good to get rid of Saddam..but.." seems to really trivialize what saddam was doing.

Of course America could act a hell of a lot better post-war, but this was one of the least-bloody wars in history.


Koworld makes a very good point about the attidude difference between the US and UK though.
This difference was painfully obvious in their speachs to the troups before they went to war.
The British was given one like "Trend lightly on holy land" ect ect, the US one was like "Go in there and GET HIM!!!!"


However, I still have the upmost respect for the soldiers in Iraq, US and UK.
I believe the vaste majority believe they are there for a good cause, and i believe they do their very best to keep cilivian lives lost to a minimum.

[Darkflame]

The aim now seems to be to make Iraq unliveable as a self governing democracy. Permanent US control required. Or perhaps I'm just being cynical

If that is the case why is the US trying so desperately to hand over power ASAP? Dispite the fact many people feel this is too soon.

Sorry, im fine with most the critisms of the US, but the idea that they want to stay in Iraq has no ground whatsoever.

A lot of people seemed to think that elections would never happen in Iraq and the US would just run over their, nick the oil and plant a macdonalds everywhere. This hasnt happened, and nor will it ever.

My guese is their will be proper elections withen 2 years.
(when the war started I said 3...im sure thats in a thread somewhere)

[Bogdan]

Freedom is not free.

[betamax]

Before we went in, none of these pictures would have made it out, or if they had they'd have been D Noticed in the name of international relations.

Very good point.

Yes, purhapes people that think these are bad should go and get some of those pictures of what it was like before the war too.
The torture videos sold in Saddam city would be a good start.

The idea that "oh, yes, it was good to get rid of Saddam..but.." seems to really trivialize what saddam was doing.

And that was... what exactly? We have the documented genocide of some of Saddams own people... and..... and... not a whole lot else except USA hearsay and "He's another potential Hitler".

"Saddam City"? Where might that be? Is it where the Evil Monster (tm) plotted his schemes to rule us all and "take away our freedoms"? Sounds a bit too much like "Snake Mountain" to me mate.

Essentially then, Iraq wasnt a perfect place before, a hellhole in fact, ruled as it was by a US armed, trained and funded despot. Now however its a hellhole with really big craters, crippled amenities, not enough food and nacent rebellion. And we have more terrorism now than before the "War" began.