Oh yes, she shall be mine..

[phattslagg]

There is a common misunderstanding here, IMHO.

- Hardware synths nowadays create sounds digitally, and they can't be better than software synths, apart from speed and latency.

Dedicated interface, anyone?

- You don't have any noise from soft synth, you have a lot from cables used in hardware.

Shouldn't be a problem with usb audio in the TI..

- MIDI is a very old protocol. You can tweak your sound with more freedom with a soft synth.

Correction - with some soft synths.

The only reason to buy a modern digital hardware synth is fetishism, and more money than brain.

Now you're into seriously dodgy territory - just because someone doesn't have the same wants/needs as you concerning their musical equipment, doesn't make them stupid..

The last hardware synth I've got (Yamaha AN1x) was great, but it came out when computers weren't fast enough to synthesize sounds. I've sold it when the first soft synth came out (the first one I've tried was Retro AS1, which was indistinguishable from the AN1x in quality and richness of the sounds.

The Virus always has been more powerful and less easily replaced by soft-synths than some of it's VA cousins.

Another consideration is the fact that hardware synths don't eat up any of your CPU and, best of all, don't have to rely on it in any way - i.e. you can use them entirely independently from your computer setup - something which is still very important for the gigging keyboard player.

[Acronym]

Also, Reason's just a stack of soft-synths, and using ReWire there's no reason you can't use it alongside some other software. It's certainly not the same kind of beast as the "instant music" eJay type stuff out there.

[ciacio]

I'm sorry. I didn't want to be offensive. I just wanted to participate.

But I totally disagree with you.

I've seen too many times people around me and friends spending all their money buying hardware synths and leaving them unused after some months, while using vst plugins to do the job.

There are still folks buying and using old 12bit hw samplers because, so they say, the sound is richer.

Now professionals from all over the world are using soft synths for gigging with the big names of music (I don't like most of the estabilished and mainstream artists, but their keyboardist surely know what they're using).

If you're really creative in composing music, doing stuff that can be played live without prerecorded audio, with a sequencer that output midi to your synths while you tweak your knobs is limiting. And if you've been into electronic music and live electronic music performances you already know that the vast majority of live act are just a pretentious joke.

As a musician of experimental music, I've refused to play a lot of venues for years, disgusted by the laptop music performances of people that were just pressing play on Soundforge with a single stereo track going.
I were using software developed by myself with a lot of controls for different parameters and some parameters that changed atonomously according to an algorithm of mine.
Once I opened for the blonde redhead with my laptop in front of thousands of people and most of them thought I was a dj, and started yelling "play aphex twin! play aphex twin!"

Again, I'm sorry. Sometimes I'm aggressive when I want to give an advice about something I think I really know.

Anyway my rule of thumb is: If you're considering buying something that is expensive for your wallet, probably you don't need it.

c.

http://www.cesaremarilungo.com

[ciacio]

Also, Reason's just a stack of soft-synths, and using ReWire there's no reason you can't use it alongside some other software. It's certainly not the same kind of beast as the "instant music" eJay type stuff out there.

Using it that way is even worse. There are far better soft synths (some of them are even freeware, or opensource) than the ones inside Reason. And rewire puts a lot of overhead on the sequencer or virtual studio software.

On the other hand there are more worse.
Arturia Storm is worse. It has also a wizard to make music for you. I'm disappointed because they've made great soft synths, even if maybe too processor heavy.

c.

http://www.cesaremarilungo.com

[phattslagg]

I'm sorry. I didn't want to be offensive. I just wanted to participate.

But I totally disagree with you.

I've seen too many times people around me and friends spending all their money buying hardware synths and leaving them unused after some months, while using vst plugins to do the job.

There are still folks buying and using old 12bit hw samplers because, so they say, the sound is richer.

Anyway my rule of thumb is: If you're considering buying something that is expensive for your wallet, probably you don't need it.

No worries - no offense was taken

The bottom line about all this, is that it really makes no difference in the end, so long as you are inspired by your equipment to make music, and you find the process enjoyable.

In my case, I have some damn tasty plugs on my system, but I always come to them last, because I don't find them fun to use. I hate the stupid little interfaces, with graphics that are barely readable for one thing. I hate the cpu strain they induce for another.

In many respects, I see where you're coming from, and there are many who feel like you about hardware. There are also many like myself who still like the idea of hardware, and shudder at the thought of an entirely soft setup.

There is no doubt that companies like Access are increasingly under threat from the soft-synth companies, but they are damn smart guys, and you can be sure they won't go down without a fight

[ciacio]

The bottom line about all this, is that it really makes no difference in the end, so long as you are inspired by your equipment to make music, and you find the process enjoyable.

I agree, totally.

The main thing I wanted to point out is this: I'm not an hardware synth designer, but I have a strong suspect that the algorithms used in hw and sw virtual analogue synths are just the same.

From a qualitative perspective result are the same.
Non-technical people still think that sw synths and effects are fake, and hw is the real thing.

So, when I see too much excitement for a piece of hw, I'm concerned about these people not knowing what's going on.

c.

p.s. Sorry for my poor english. I've spent just two months in anglophone countries in my whole life. And it happened ten years ago. And I've never studied it apart from primary school. And I live in Italy, where everything on tv and theaters is translated and dubbed.

[phattslagg]

The main thing I wanted to point out is this: I'm not an hardware synth designer, but I have a strong suspect that the algorithms used in hw and sw virtual analogue synths are just the same.

Some of them certainly are. But not all of them. There are established ways of doing things, but then there are always going to be those who can think beyond the textbooks. Not all softsynths use the same algorithms, and neither do the hardware synths.

From a qualitative perspective result are the same.

I don't agree. There are many differences - some very subtle, to be sure, but some are quite marked. Remember that every single component in the chain (oscillator, filter, amp etc) has to be coded individually, and it isn't just the sound of each component, it's the way they all interact with each other that gives a synth it's unique flavour.

You should check out the difference in character between the Virus, Nord Lead and Waldorf Q. All 3 synths have completely different characters.

Another area in which big differences can be seen between the different algorithms is the efficiency of the code. To come back to the case of the Ti - they've managed to squeeze 80+ voices out of it with just 2 DSPs. From the specs, it would seem that the hypersaw oscillator will be capable of even more than that, even when it's generating 9 saws, and 9 suboscillators per voice!! This leaves PC software in the dust - despite offering 32 voices as standard nowadays (Korg Legacy, Ultra Analog etc) these are only theoretical stats, and most PC's would choke on this.

Take Ultra Analog, for instance - I was doing a tune with that recently, using 8 or 9 simultaneous instances, and that particular Logic song takes literally 1min+ to open on my P4 3Ghz!! Then getting it to play back more than a couple of times without crashing is almost impossible. It's a great plug, but I'm afraid I cannot help but return to my trusty Virus C if I want to actually get some work done! That can happily operate in 16 part multi-timbral mode, with the only problem being the 32 voice polyphony, which gets spread quite thin pretty quickly.

With my TI, I'll be able to work on multi-track arrangements with polyphony hardly being an issue anymore. If I want to render any parts to audio, it'll be as simple as if it were a VSTi. And if I don't want to have to stare at a monitor, I can do all the sound-editing offline as well if I choose.

Won't be long now..

[ciacio]

Ok.

Maybe I'm just envious because I can't afford to buy hardware synths like that.

Seriously, I didn't know I was talking with a really informed person. And I felt the desire to give some advices that I consider valuable.

c.

http://www.cesaremarilungo.com

[phattslagg]

Ok.

Maybe I'm just envious because I can't afford to buy hardware synths like that.

Seriously, I didn't know I was talking with a really informed person. And I felt the desire to give some advices that I consider valuable.

I'm sure there are many for whom your advice would indeed make a lot of sense. It is certainly true that anyone with suitable talent and determination can make amazing music with little more financial outlay than the cost of the PC hardware.

There are also many who much prefer to do everything in software, and whilst that's not something I feel entirely comfortable with, I can definitely understand why this is.

On a side note - with piracy being so rife, I wouldn't be surprised if software companies don't start looking more at proprietary systems like PowerCore as a means of copy protection. In a way, the Virus hardware could itself be seen as a very smart looking dongle