Football: Season 2004/5 Discussion Thread.

[PaulEMoz]

I don't believe the linesman was corrupt, just utterly shit and totally incompetent, and he shouldn't be allowed to officiate at that level again.

Why, because he doesn't have x-ray vision? MOTD showed excellent footage of where he was positioned - he was exactly where he was supposed to be, up with play and ready to make an offside call if needed. When the ball got hoofed towards the goal he set off as fast as he could go, but there isn't a human alive who can run even nearly as fast as a football can be kicked, and at the point the ball went in, Carroll's body was right between the linesman and the ball, and a good 40 or 50 yards away.

There was nothing the poor bastard could do, he couldn't see if it was in or not. He's not incompetent, he was unlucky. And since Spurs winning would have been floodlight robbery, all his mistake did was bring a semblance of justice to the result, and give everyone something to get all excited about. I'm not sure a man deserves to have his career destroyed for that.

Well, I haven't seen MotD, just the game and our daily one hour of Sky Sports News. If he couldn't see the incident, then fair enough, you can't give what you can't see. Having said that, the photos seem to indicate that Carroll dived straight back to scoop the ball out of the net, which would imply that the linesman would have seen at least some of it no matter where he was on the sideline. But we'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

What we really need is for the FA to finally realise they need to change. Video replays are now almost essential, as long as they're used only in goal-line instances. Stopping the game for every disputed call is obviously not practical, but in the case of a disputed goal, it should be determined there and then whether the goal should stand or not. It wouldn't take more than a minute, would be unlikely to happen on average even once per game, and if it meant the correct result would be determined every time, surely nobody could argue?

I don't agree with you regarding your last point, though. Since when has football been a game of justice? Every supporter in the land has seen their team play the other team off the park only to lose 1-0 (or 4-1 in the last instance I can remember with Newcastle!). The game finished 0-0, it should have been 1-0, and regardless of how the game went before that, 1-0 would have been the fair result.

[Rev. Stuart Campbell]

Well, both managers agreed we should have video evidence, and I think most people do too. I'd say goals, penalties and red cards, but it IS possible to see it becoming a real can of worms in practice.

And yeah, football isn't always fair. But are we saying injustice is a good thing now, something to be not only tolerated but actively sought? Weird.

[PaulEMoz]

And yeah, football isn't always fair. But are we saying injustice is a good thing now, something to be not only tolerated but actively sought? Weird.

Hardly. But it's a bit different in terms of a sporting result. In this case, regarding the outcome of the match, regardless of how well Man Utd. might have played, they didn't put the ball in the back of the net and Spurs did, so a just and fair result would have been 1-0 to Spurs, no matter how the match went in terms of performances.

[Rev. Stuart Campbell]

That's a really biased and selective view of "justice". In fact, it's the opposite - it's a description of law, not justice. They're not the same thing.

[rockwaldo]

[
If Man U were so deserved of not losing, maybe they should have done so fairly no?

Man U didn't do anything unfair. The linesman and referee got a difficult decision wrong. (Difficult in the sense of "difficult for them to see", I'm 100% sure they'd have given a goal with the benefit of TV replays.)

Tell you what, though - I'll accept any criticism of the linesman and demands that he be fired, from people who've never made a single error of any kind in their professional career, okay?

As obscene as it sounds, what about a little honesty back into the game?

Ever seen snooker player's conduct when they accidentally touch a ball without the referee seeing? Gentlemans game.

I dont blame Man U at all - it wasnt their fault the officals fucked up, but surely something can be done in the future retrospectively.?

[Rev. Stuart Campbell]

As obscene as it sounds, what about a little honesty back into the game?

Sure. Just as soon as everyone stops diving, fouling, handballing, timewasting, claiming corners that they know are goal kicks...

[rockwaldo]

As obscene as it sounds, what about a little honesty back into the game?

Sure. Just as soon as everyone stops diving, fouling, handballing, timewasting, claiming corners that they know are goal kicks...

romantic stuff eh?

I just think that its a major mistake from all counts today - i dont accept that the officals had a tricky decision to make. Roy Caroll was on his line when he palmed the ball over his shoulder - that is easy to see from even the opposition keeper. He then dives back full stretch and palms the ball out merely centimetres from the back net! Its an obvious goal, and one that i can only feel was not given due to the officals bottling it somewhat......

[moobaa]

Lordy, this discussion has me inspired.

Which ep of MOTD should I be looking for at uknova?

[romanista]

mmm.. so a martin jol game without goals? that's funny

still forza spurs! and if they jhave been unlucky this time, the next linesman won't dare to dissallow the next one, will he? justice in football is often at a later instance

[Sickboy]

Tell you what, though - I'll accept any criticism of the linesman and demands that he be fired, from people who've never made a single error of any kind in their professional career, okay?

How very Christian of you.

My point is really about retrospective reprimands. It happens for players, but referees who, after the fact, can be seen to have made the wrong decision, are just sent on their merry way.

I know the incident we're talking about was pretty freakish, and I'm still sore about the Liverpool-Chelsea handball, but y'know - even an *acknowledgement* of a mistake would soothe the twitchy relationship between referees/players/managers. Most players apologise for bad tackles, etc., but referees just keep their cowardly heads down.

I hope this is a tipping point for video evidence over provable issues. Although with FIFA's brontosaurus-like agility over major changes, I can't see it happening this decade.

[Jedburgh]

What's the problem?

[Zoot]

What's the problem?

hahahahaha

Mozzie - sorry for the berating. I'm just annoyed that folks still hate Man Utd more than Chelsea.

[Rev. Stuart Campbell]

My point is really about retrospective reprimands. It happens for players, but referees who, after the fact, can be seen to have made the wrong decision, are just sent on their merry way.

But my point still stands - "reprimand" for what, exactly? Not having x-ray eyes or half-a-dozen camera angles to help them with a split-second decision? It's easy with stills, but when I watched the incident again this morning, I was struck by how fast it all happens. The ref and linesman are far away (not a fault, as they're only human and can't keep up with a flying ball), at entirely the wrong angle to judge (also not a fault, as they're where they should have been at that point in play normally, and were caught out by a freak event), and have their view obscured by the keeper.

The incident is only OBVIOUS from the side view, which the officials didn't have the benefit of. Come on, folks - perspective is a tough thing to judge at any time. How often have you been watching a game on telly, seen a shot that looks like it's shaved the post, then you see if from the camera behind the goal and it's actually missed by 15 yards? The ref and linesman were in a physically impossible situation, guessed, and guessed wrong. It's in no way the same thing as Wayne Rooney shoving someone in the face or Duncan Ferguson sticking the elbow in when the ref is watching the ball, and being pulled up for it on later video evidence. That's deliberate cheating, not human fallibility. I'm sure that if and when they're asked, the ref and linesman will admit they got it wrong.

[Ely]

Lordy, this discussion has me inspired.

Which ep of MOTD should I be looking for at uknova?

Just look for the one with yesterdays date on it (4th January). It's the first game shown as as Gary Lineker says, 'something extraordinary happens near the end' !!!

Regardless of the result, Roy Carroll wouldn't have been looking forward to seeing Fergie after the game that's for sure!

[Zoot]

Lordy, this discussion has me inspired.

Which ep of MOTD should I be looking for at uknova?

Just look for the one with yesterdays date on it (4th January). It's the first game shown as as Gary Lineker says, something extraordinary happens near the end !!!

Regardless of the result, Roy Carroll wouldn't have been looking forward to seeig Fergie after the game that's for sure!

He'll be out for sure. He fumbled one against Middlesbrough, and the one last night was his second of the game. Fergie will be on the phone this morning to Mr Abramovich asking for Cudocini.