Football: Season 2004/5 Discussion Thread.

[f0zz]

If you aren't arsed about ever going to a cup final or watching an open-topped bus parade through your city centre then keep your moral high ground and languish in mediocrity. Otherwise enjoy the fur-fights and high-octane psychology.

Hahaha. I've been to plenty of cup finals, mister. I won't bore you with the usual Liverpool fan-to-Man Utd fan trophy maths, but it does amuse me how Mancs get all fruity over the faintest slight on their beloved, rosy-nosed, Mumbling Vagrant-In-Chief.

Wasn't necessarily directed at Liverpool or you, sir. But the point remains. I have a vivid vision when it comes round to Liverpool recruiting managers. That nice Littlewoods pools man and his granny, titular head of human resources, insisting on having the final say. "Well he's nice, sensible cardie, not too much after-shave. Reminds me of Charles Aznavour, a bit"

They seem awfully trusting, if not a little out of touch with the modern game. Perhaps that's why Souness (a man oft-quoted and much admired for his passion and obduracy) failed to last the course in the face of such conservatism. But how many foreign managers have to drag countless players from the beautiful sleepiness of their own country into the turgid reality of NW England before it all implodes in a mushroom cloud of wingbacks and work permits ?

Seriously, the Liverpool of old would never capitulate the way they do these days. I'd venture to suggest you've too many johnny foreigners with not enough backbone, vested interest or commitment (I can think of three or four top teams who suffer the same malaise, and will never win a European cup or premiership in the dying seconds for exactly that reason) If you've a point to make here, or even the gall to gainsay it, this is the time to emerge into stark blinking reality, or retreat into the comfort of "one day, soon."

Face it. You've gone from upper-mid table feast-or-famine to errr, nuff said. No amount of nice cardies will put that right, son. It's somehow worse than dropping a division. Look at you, you're the honeycomb middle that weighs so little. When was the last time you snatched a sudden-death win from a diving header that put the protagonist in hospital ?

Last time I saw a team with so little forward-thinking infrastructure ran by a clueless but well-meaning chairman was Man City, and we all know what happened to them


cheers
f0zz

[Sickboy]

I'm in a bad mood and this is entirely inappropriate, but I *really* fucking hate it when people call me "son". It's the verbal equivalent of a patronising pat on the back. From a man with a pipe.

So, yeah. You won. You wound me up.

Your point about modern-day capitulation because of too many foreigners feels pretty tired to me and, as you said, you could happily apply it to 95% of top-flight teams.

I can think of plenty of examples where the current/recent Liverpool team have had the guile and gall to plug away and bag a last-minute win (Mellor's Arsenal goal a couple of months ago, Gerrard's Champion's League-saving 3-1 goal, McAllister's no-chance free-kick against Everton, Smicer's volley against Chelsea in 2002, FA Cup Final 2001)... The trouble with us is that we're forever rebuilding and re-rebuilding some glittering new cathedral on the increasingly unstable foundations of old glories.

And Souness wasn't crippled by the club's conservative culture or any of that. He just bought shit players.

I dunno. If we're really staring each other down here, I don't see that much difference between Man Utd and Liverpool at the moment. Depressingly, it feels like the Northerners have had their fun (us in the '70s and '80s, you in the '90s) and we now stand on the gaping edge of a painful era of Laandun domination.

As a Liverpool fan, I'm used to living in the past. I think you'd better start to brace yourself for it, too.

[Dio]

Do you think Man U, Chelsea or Arsenal really have that much more 'spirit' and 'backbone' than Newcastle, Liverpool and Middlesborough, or is it just that they have twice the value of players?

Man U have this through having been by far the highest grossing team in the Premiership for five to ten years, Chelsea by spending Abramovich's billions, and Arsenal by buying a lower percentage of turkeys than any other top team and before they really show their talent.

Certainly, none of them have recently relied on a high percentage of English or even British talent, and all have suffered from overpaid underperformers. The difference is those underpaid overperformers are easier to hide when you can field two first teams simultaneously (as Man U did in the pre-season warm-ups in 2001 or 2002, for example).

And so sure, I see a difference in the spirit of those teams over the lesser lights, but it is at least possible that's because they know they have a chance of winning something this year and nobody else does.

The only teams with a chance of overturning the long-term hegemony of those three are Liverpool and Newcastle, because they're the only other Premiership teams with remotely comparable incomes. Newcastle have a slightly better position because of the massive stadium and that we're a few years further down the road of paying for it.

In order to prop themselves up to the top three, though, they will need to find management teams who can play the transfer market with a skill of a Wenger and keep it together for at least three years. I've some marginal hopes for both in this respect, but both will need Champions League football to draw in the top players, and it's possible that the manger isn't the only issue but that the chairmen are equally an issue.

And of course, it's possible that Chelsea will take up such an overwhelmingly strong financial position that they will be truly unassailable, at which point we will maybe be able to talk UEFA into a salary cap and give a competitive Premiership a chance again.

[Flabio]

As a Forest fan, the thing the cracks me up the most at the moment is Wenger and Ferguson bitching at each other in a 'if I can't win the premiership this year, you can't either' kind of schoolyard bitchfight.

[KevG]

But the point remains. I have a vivid vision when it comes round to Liverpool recruiting managers. That nice Littlewoods pools man and his granny, titular head of human resources, insisting on having the final say. "Well he's nice, sensible cardie, not too much after-shave. Reminds me of Charles Aznavour, a bit"

They seem awfully trusting, if not a little out of touch with the modern game. Perhaps that's why Souness (a man oft-quoted and much admired for his passion and obduracy) failed to last the course in the face of such conservatism.

Sorry, f0zz, but that's wrong. Souness resigned after a home defeat against Bristol City. It was an inept performance (I was there) and he said he'd overheard their manager (Megson?) at half time saying Liverpool weren't up for it and could be taken. And we were. At that point Souness realised that his coutnerpart was right and called it a day. Souness is much maligned by some but there is an argument that says that the team were allowed to grow old under Dalglish. Souness brought great young talent on but too late to maintain any sort of momentum. So, no, Souness' demise had nothing to do with so-called 'conservatism'.

But how many foreign managers have to drag countless players from the beautiful sleepiness of their own country into the turgid reality of NW England before it all implodes in a mushroom cloud of wingbacks and work permits ?

Had this discussion with a blue yesterday. To be honest, it's a very weak argument when you take the current Arsenal and Chelsea teams into consideration. I don't care were the player comes from, as long as he plays well. Also, it doesn't seem to concern Alex Feguson either (Forlan, Veron, Van Nistelrooy, Ronaldo etc). Benítez certainly can't be accused of ignoring the home-grown lads either (Whitbread, Raven, Warnock etc)

If you've a point to make here, or even the gall to gainsay it, this is the time to emerge into stark blinking reality, or retreat into the comfort of "one day, soon."

Think Sickboy's made it but, no right minded Liverpudlian finds the 'one-day' soon scenario "comfortable". It's galvanising if anything: cast your mind back to United's barren years.

Face it. You've gone from upper-mid table feast-or-famine to errr, nuff said.

I don't htink any LFC follower, here, would gainsay that at all. We jump up and down for joy after beating Arsenal and Olympiakos and moan when we lose to United and Chelsea. Oh, and there's a bit of banter here and there

No amout of nice cardies will put that right, son.

No one said "they" would. If truth ne told, Moores' days are probably numbered. The reds at this end of the 62 knew this was going to be a roller-coaster season and yeah, it's been disappointing sometimes but we've had some great nights. Truth is, the fans are lot happier this season than last. We're doing all right all things considered.

[romanista]

The only teams with a chance of overturning the long-term hegemony of those three are Liverpool and Newcastle, because they're the only other Premiership teams with remotely comparable incomes. Newcastle have a slightly better position because of the massive stadium and that we're a few years further down the road of paying for it.

mmm is this the fan of the analist speaking..not to offend you, but over here we always think of newcastle as an eternal subtop club and it doesn't have a large fanbase oversea, while liverpool does (with all marketing rights money stuff etc)?

anyway.. hasn't it always been a 3 horse run at max, with sometimes shifting one of the participants... (80's liverpool/arsenal), (90s Man U, a oen season wonderteam, arsenal), now (chelsea, arsenal, and a bit man u)...

even found myself cheering for man u a bit (i have to admit, i have been a ABU for a while)....

In Holland we of course have the same top 3 for ages now (Ajax, Feyenoord, PSV Eindhoven), although this year AZ is playing so lovely (the game where they beat rangers in the UEFA cup was one of their worst)
so whe might have a champion out of the traditional top three for the first time since 1981 (when AZ won it as well, and reach the uefa cup final against ipswich), before that it was Sparta in 1966

[Dio]

not to offend you, but over here we always think of newcastle as an eternal subtop club and it doesn't have a large fanbase oversea, while liverpool does (with all marketing rights money stuff etc)?

Oh no, I'll agree with you to a great extent. Newcastle just about managed to reestablish themselves as a 'top side' after some years of languishing in the lower divisions, and so haven't build the overseas reputation that Liverpool did in the 70s and 80s - not least since we still haven't won anything.

Against that, though, we have 9000 more seats in our stadium and have already financed and started paying off the rebuild (a job which Liverpool will probably do in the next five years). So we've got one of the better financial positions in the Premiership.

Also, don't be assured that reputation means money coming in from overseas. Everton, for example, are (I think) the third biggest overseas earner in the Premiership because of the Chinese tie-in.

I think we were ranked over Liverpool when I saw this table last, although googling hasn't turned up the data so it's very possible I'm wrong. It could be that this is due to the decent European runs we've had for the last few seasons (second phase CL two years ago, semi-finals UEFA last year).

anyway.. hasn't it always been a 3 horse run at max, with sometimes shifting one of the participants... (80's liverpool/arsenal), (90s Man U, a oen season wonderteam, arsenal), now (chelsea, arsenal, and a bit man u)...

If Abramovich hadn't come in then by 2010 we'd almost certainly have seen a solid 20 years of Arsenal-Man U dominance, with maybe three other teams winning the Premiership in that time. That's unprecedented in the history of English football. But now, I wouldn't be remotely surprised if Chelsea win every Premiership until 2010.

It's all about money.

[KevG]

Against that, though, we have 9000 more seats in our stadium and have already financed and started paying off the rebuild (a job which Liverpool will probably do in the next five years). So we've got one of the better financial positions in the Premiership.

Yeah. I've got a quiet admiration for Newcastle's achievements on the restructuring front. LFC are in a right state (of flux) at the moment I've said on here before, our issue isn't necessarily a new ground (shared or wholly owned) or Steven Gerrard (though the press would have you think otherwise). We need to get on a solid financial footing and this is where I think Mr Moores et al have to get cracking. It was always a mystery to me as a young lad why we weren't capitalising on our success commercially and I think we're paying for it now. Literally. I think Arsenal got it right. Get your squad and finances sorted, then go for a new stadium.

[f0zz]

I'm in a bad mood and this is entirely inappropriate, but I *really* fucking hate it when people call me "son". It's the verbal equivalent of a patronising pat on the back. From a man with a pipe.

Yeah, that was deliberate, sorry. In the right context a "son" can be far more antagonising than the strongest insult or swear word. And although I wasn't exactly stoking up the Meerschaum at that moment It stayed in, mostly to provoke a reaction that wasn't "Yeah, well...blah blah blah, we're okay you're okay...(and I have a few years on you, so don't take it personally )

So, yeah. You won. You wound me up.

Didn't realise that's what I was trying to do until now, but yeah, again you're right. Fair play for not descending to my level, and for not supping 2/3rd's of a bottle of red wine before morphing into Mr. Rantpost

Your point about modern-day capitulation because of too many foreigners feels pretty tired to me and, as you said, you could happily apply it to 95% of top-flight teams.

Don't get me wrong. I love the way the premiership brims with attractive skillsmen these days. Not ten years ago we were bemoaning the lack of talent from overseas, and putting all their International glories down to the fact that they have players who travel, who play in different leagues and environments. I'd not swap that for anything; but what I say is true, its a Pyrrhic legacy from what ultimately has to be seen as a Good Thing.

I can think of plenty of examples where the current/recent Liverpool team have had the guile and gall to plug away and bag a last-minute win (Mellor's Arsenal goal a couple of months ago, Gerrard's Champion's League-saving 3-1 goal, McAllister's no-chance free-kick against Everton, Smicer's volley against Chelsea in 2002, FA Cup Final 2001)... The trouble with us is that we're forever rebuilding and re-rebuilding some glittering new cathedral on the increasingly unstable foundations of old glories.

You've pretty much made my point for me there, old chap (considered "son" there for a second but thought better of it ) All home-grown matchwinners (apart from Smicer, but he and Hyppia are honorary blood-and-guts players as far as I'm concerned.) Without wishing to labour the point too much, these guys will put their heads in where others (and I suppose I'm pointing an accusatory finger vaguely Mediterranean-wards) will baulk - time and again.

I dunno. If we're really staring each other down here, I don't see that much difference between Man Utd and Liverpool at the moment. Depressingly, it feels like the Northerners have had their fun (us in the '70s and '80s, you in the '90s) and we now stand on the gaping edge of a painful era of Laandun domination.

As a Liverpool fan, I'm used to living in the past. I think you'd better start to brace yourself for it, too.

I hear ya. And if I'm honest, I'd like to have seen Fergie gracefully (or gracelessly, as the case would most likely be) retire two seasons ago, and have us net the then disgruntled Sven. I truly believe we'd be at least another trophy richer by now, possibly two. But, as they say, if me auntie'd have had balls.....


cheers
f0zz

[Zoot]

I'm in a bad mood and this is entirely inappropriate, but I *really* fucking hate it when people call me "son". It's the verbal equivalent of a patronising pat on the back. From a man with a pipe.

So, yeah. You won. You wound me up.

Excellent. I've got to store *THAT* away for future use And I called you "son" a few days ago, too, so I had better watch out then

All this nonsense about Ferguson - Wenger is just that - nonsense. United are playing Arsenal in two weeks. It's standard practice that Fergie starts his "mind games". I still can't believe that people bite - even Mr super-cool Wenger has bitten - again. You would have thought that after Keegan ten years ago everyone would have just laughed and not got upset, but he still manages to do it. He is just stoking things up, and loves it when people start calling him a whinger.

As far Chelsea money dominating - well, we'll see. Jack Walker didn't manage it. There is a very good argument for the fact that Man Utd's dominance in the 90's was down to the fact that they were the first to turn the hype into marketable capital. I don't yet see Chelsea DOMINATING on the football field, however. They are playing fantastically, but United, Arsenal and Liverpool won points before the opposing team got on the pitch because they were scared - Chelsea are a long way from that, but I am impressed so far.

Finally, Sickers, old son (is that better? ), I *LOVED* you description of past glories (slightly turned around)........

"When you (Utd) were dominant in the 90's, and we (Scousers) were dominant in the 70's AND 80's....."

hahahahahahahaha - I see what you did! Hahahaha, you were saying that Liverpool were twice as good weren't you? Tee hee, next you will be comparing how many trophies Paisley won to those Fergie has won

[Dio]

I think Arsenal got it right. Get your squad and finances sorted, then go for a new stadium.

Arsenal's success in this area is, AFAICS, largely built on Wenger's ability to spend sensibly and get awesome quality for it, because Arsenal's financial position right now is probably not that much stronger than Newcastle's would be were we to make it through to the Champions League every season.

But while Wenger bought Overmars, Henry and Ljungberg 'before they were famous' we picked up Robert and Viana. And this season he's turned up Fabregas and Van Persie. I really don't know how the guy does it - Man U, Chelsea, Real, Inter etc. spend three times as much to buy players of the same kind of quality.

[Zoot]

I think Arsenal got it right. Get your squad and finances sorted, then go for a new stadium.

Arsenal's success in this area is, AFAICS, largely built on Wenger's ability to spend sensibly and get awesome quality for it, because Arsenal's financial position right now is probably not that much stronger than Newcastle's would be were we to make it through to the Champions League every season.

But while Wenger bought Overmars, Henry and Ljungberg 'before they were famous' we picked up Robert and Viana. And this season he's turned up Fabregas and Van Persie. I really don't know how the guy does it - Man U, Chelsea, Real, Inter etc. spend three times as much to buy players of the same kind of quality.

I agree with this.

[Dio]

Jack Walker didn't manage it.

From where I was sitting (ten miles up the road in Preston) it looked like he did to me, but he just pressed the 'collect' button after he'd won the Premiership - he was interested in profit as well as in football.

Abramovich is an order of magnitude ahead of Jack Walker in cash and just wants to spend it on football. He doesn't want it back.

[Zoot]

I think Arsenal got it right. Get your squad and finances sorted, then go for a new stadium.

Arsenal's success in this area is, AFAICS, largely built on Wenger's ability to spend sensibly and get awesome quality for it, because Arsenal's financial position right now is probably not that much stronger than Newcastle's would be were we to make it through to the Champions League every season.

But while Wenger bought Overmars, Henry and Ljungberg 'before they were famous' we picked up Robert and Viana. And this season he's turned up Fabregas and Van Persie. I really don't know how the guy does it - Man U, Chelsea, Real, Inter etc. spend three times as much to buy players of the same kind of quality.

I agree with this.

In fact, Man Utd have a recent history of buying duffers. Djemba Djemba, Kleberson et al...............

[Zoot]

Jack Walker didn't manage it.

From where I was sitting (ten miles up the road in Preston) it looked like he did to me, but he just pressed the 'collect' button after he'd won the Premiership - he was interested in profit as well as in football.

Abramovich is an order of magnitude ahead of Jack Walker in cash and just wants to spend it on football. He doesn't want it back.

Nah,

Walker was gutted when Blackburn couldn't maintain the momentum. I just don't buy the idea that he set out to win it once and then sat back contented.