XBox has it's own full blown VLM!

Every now and then a Llamasoftie will say something interesting. Honestly! This is where we will keep these topics so that they don't get deleted.
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Post by ophion »

Yak wrote:
If you don't like the aesthetic of VLM-2, fair enough, that's your call. It doesn't make VLM-2 in any way "bad". All it means is that *you* don't like it.

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It means that *I* don't like and that anyone with whom I have ever communicated who has seen it does not like it, excepting *you*. Don't get your fur ruffled. As you say, aesthetics are subjective, and I greatly prefer the Jag VLM and the beautiful hi-res GameCube effects. I'm not, of course, saying that VLM-2 is inherently evil or that anyone who likes it is mentally defective. Sheesh. :roll:

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Post by Yak »

Yes, well, if you were so set against it in the first place I hardly think any demonstration you might have made would have been free of detrimental comments about it.

Perhaps the people you demonstrated it to were just being "polite" when they said they didn't like it. ;)

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Post by p-saurus »

I doubt it changes anything but I like the NUON VLM a lot more than the one that was in my Jag CD. It's more responsive and it's more fun to play with with the controller. Also, I find Tempest 2000 (which used to be my favorite game of all time) boring now that I've played T3k and can't get into it anymore. T3k is just so fluid when you turn off the backgrounds and I've found it so much easier to make a "connection" with the gently pulsating webs.
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Post by ophion »

Nope, I showed it to them without saying a word about it. Nice try, though.

Additionally--in retrospect, I completely understand the force of your reaction. I and the editor of the magazine in which it appeared are the only two people to say anything positive about one of my short stories, yet it remains one of my favorite works, one which other people just do not understand properly. :wink:
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Post by Flojomojo »

VLM2 isn't chunky, it's blurry. It's a deliberate attempt to lose the "pixel aesthetic" from the first one, just as Tempest 3000 is trying to be a vector display. The framerate isn't the fastest, the effect isn't perfect, but it's still quite nice.

Higher resolution, smoother framerate, and more reactive effects would be even nicer though.

The above is an example of "constructive criticism." You don't have to be a dick about not liking something!
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Post by dtj »

The computer art "aesthetic" has been a topic of much controversy for me. I did extensive writing on the topic back in college; at the time, when I was going all bleary-eyed over Jag-VLM, people slammed it because it wasn't "soft"...

"Too blocky," they said. "Look - you can see the pixels. They're huge!"

And now we're getting the opposite: "Too soft. Where are the pixels?"

The pixel - the quantum unit of any image. Back in 1996, the computer graphics field was going nuts for photo-realism. Look at Myst, for instance. There were millions of people who actually preferred it to Doom because of the way it looked. Insane in hindsight, right?

So the emphasis in the computer graphic aesthetic was to obscure the pixel; to hide the "jaggi." To eliminate any semblance of computer-based creation.

While I'll readily admit that I missed the look of the Jag-VLM in NUON-VLM, I quickly and with much brain-spasming, realized the NUON-VLM dug into the psyche like no other before it. The things I have seen - and continue to see - inform my own life and art in ways that are indescribable. I feel sad for people who don't get it. They're sad people. They tend to be obsessed with having the best - the fastest - the highest resolution - the most progressive scan - ad nauseum; and they never see the beauty or feel the wonder; their imaginations fail them, and there is nothing more tragic. The hardware stats are not the focus of a VLM; the VLM exists firmly in the realm of art, and there are some people who will never get that. They will never understand. These are the same people who'd slam a painting by van Gogh because they can see the brushstrokes in the paint. Or comment on the visibility of the pixel. Or the lack thereof.
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Post by Muttley »

I've never seen the Jag VLM, so I can't comment on that.

But! VLM-2 CHUNKY?!?!?!

You need some friggin' glasses man! :lol:

VLM-2 is anything BUT chunky. Its slickly-smooth GFX are like liquid colours melting onto your screen. There is no chunk anywhere in sight!

I now never have music on in the house now without pumping it through VLM-2, and I can sit there mesmerised by it for hours.

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Post by cyric100 »

It occurs to me that people may be talking at crossed purposes. Don't different models implement different effects and such with VLM-2, so what may be blocky and have stuttering playback for one may not be the norm.

All I can comment on is that my N501 not only has a nice interactive VLM for me but has played all DVDs I have put in it flawlessly. In fact it is the best DVD player I have owned before I even consider VLM/T3K.

My only complaint is that the VLM-2 interface should be better (it should be easier to move between effects).
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Post by Snakey »

dtj wrote:These are the same people who'd slam a painting by van Gogh because they can see the brushstrokes in the paint. Or comment on the visibility of the pixel. Or the lack thereof.
Agree with you 100% on that. Sure, there is such a thing as *too* low res.... but all this "oh my god, you can see the pixels" crap - jeez, chill out people... I would rather have a lower res if it meant the game/app/whatever was more responsive. I couldn't care less if I can see the pixels - or if I can't.
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Post by dtj »

Muttley wrote:I've never seen the Jag VLM, so I can't comment on that.
Muttley - you really should. It's a great piece of gear. I am still finding new things in it.

Perhaps someday, via emulation... you will see.
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Post by Acronym »

dtj wrote: "Too blocky," they said. "Look - you can see the pixels. They're huge!"

And now we're getting the opposite: "Too soft. Where are the pixels?"

The pixel - the quantum unit of any image. Back in 1996, the computer graphics field was going nuts for photo-realism. Look at Myst, for instance. There were millions of people who actually preferred it to Doom because of the way it looked. Insane in hindsight, right?

So the emphasis in the computer graphic aesthetic was to obscure the pixel; to hide the "jaggi." To eliminate any semblance of computer-based creation.
This is a really interesting phenomenon, and not just in visual art (eg the growing popularity of "pixel art", such as http://www.armyoftrolls.co.uk/ - an aesthetic which is only attainable using computers). An area of this which fascinates me, though I'm not so into the music, is in music.

I think it's pretty much unarguable that popular music's course has been absolutely, and probably irrevocably, altered by the rise of cheap sampling and digital-recording technology: guitar bands use digital effects (I have a three hundred pound box which gives me a reasonable facsimile of 99% of all guitar tones I've ever heard, most of the remainder being the creation of Kevin Shields :) ), vocals are AutoTuned to within an inch of their lives, and so forth and so on - and a hell of a lot of effort has been, until recently, put into hiding this.

However, this is rapidly changing: first with the 'glitch' idea, of minimalist dance music where the weird effects caused by the breakdown of the algorithms in these devices were not suppressed, but rather exploited as the centre of the music - see Pan Sonic, Autechre, the Aphex Twin, Squarepusher, and so forth and so on - which then crossed right into the mainstream with Radiohead's "Kid A" (the title track being almost pure glitch). You can also find traces of the same aesthetic, shamelessly, in R'n'B and mainstream American pop - rhythms and textures totally unattainable without modern digital effects.

Another example of this is when the the whole bootleg scene, a fundamentally online phenomenon, took off, and you wound up with Richard X - a bedroom bootlegger - producing Sugababes' "Freak Like Me" in such a way as to deliberately mimic the "crunchy" sound quality of a low-bit-rate mp3 (listen to it sometime, closely, and you'll hear what I mean) - the song itself being a remake of his bootleg of Adina Howard's original vocal onto Gary Numan's "Are 'Friends' Electric".

This seems to me to be approaching something as important to future music as Kraftwerk (or Stockhausen) are to today's: it's certainly very comparable the latter's use of "found sound" - the use of "found" digital effects, digital distortion, and other such pieces of serendipity in the assembling of music. To lapse into hyperbole, it might be the most important thing in popular music since the discovery of valve clipping's unique effects on guitar tone.

It's just exciting seeing this new audiovisual aesthetic take shape; one with a much greater degree of interactivity and malleability than any that have come before....

... which links us neatly back to VLMs.
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Post by Bog »

BRING ON THE DANCING GIRLS!
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Post by Snakey »

Absolutely :)
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Post by moobaa »

Goat... I remember the bliss of 320x200, when I could look at the screen really closely to determine just how a particular graphic style was achieved... :P

(Righto, I'll doff the rose-coloured specs now ;))
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Post by Yak »

Well I have just given Shob a quick preview of some of Saturday's new VLM-3 effects. And he bloody liked them.

SO THERE!

It's MY VLM and I'll do what I want to!

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