XBox has it's own full blown VLM!

[Yak]

My point is, resolutions do matter to people, and they matter a lot. This is all part of personal preference, and I can't help it if some people (a lot of them actually) have different tastes than you DTJ.

Well, what I recall of Geiss, sure, it ran at a higher spatial resolution, but at the expense of colour resolution - basically it uses a paletted mode, because doing the blending for feedback effects is much easier that way than actually blending all three RGB components. It also uses precalculated vector fields for the feedback, meaning that although there are some interesting feedback modes they aren't very dynamic. In VLM-2 I wanted to have a decent colour resolution, and everything calculated in realtime.

To be honest, purely passive visualisations do very little for me; they are ten-a-penny these days, and no matter fow cool they appear at first viewing, they get old very quickly. And I certainly wouldn't want to be reverting to a lower colour resolution.

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(:-) - Yak
/

[Dave]

My point is, resolutions do matter to people, and they matter a lot. This is all part of personal preference, and I can't help it if some people (a lot of them actually) have different tastes than you DTJ.

Well, what I recall of Geiss, sure, it ran at a higher spatial resolution, but at the expense of colour resolution - basically it uses a paletted mode, because doing the blending for feedback effects is much easier that way than actually blending all three RGB components. It also uses precalculated vector fields for the feedback, meaning that although there are some interesting feedback modes they aren't very dynamic. In VLM-2 I wanted to have a decent colour resolution, and everything calculated in realtime.

To be honest, purely passive visualisations do very little for me; they are ten-a-penny these days, and no matter fow cool they appear at first viewing, they get old very quickly. And I certainly wouldn't want to be reverting to a lower colour resolution.

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(:-) - Yak
/

Actually, now that I recall, I remember being disappointed with the color's in Geiss. VLM1 and VLM2 are much more colorful indeed. Really, the only thing that Geiss did for me was that it ran higher resolutions smoother, and had a very nice liquid feel to it.

Milkdrop is nothing but Geiss2, and the color platelet was improved in it. Technical-wise, I can easily see the differences between them and VLM2. Geiss and Milkdrop are nothing more than glorified Oscilloscope’s, where VLM2 is much more than that. VLM2 is much more responsive to the actual music, and is technically the best light-synths that I have played with. You can pick out the oscilloscope easily in just about every Geiss/Milkdrop visualization. Plus, most of the effects are blatant copies of some of your past work. I don't think anyone can deny that. Visual wise though, it's a near tie between Milkdrop and VLM1, with VLM1 out in the lead. I just think it looks prettier.

As for interactive VLM, VLM2 didn't do it for me. For me to really get into that, I need something that's much more interactive than that. From the sounds of it, Unity may be just that. I'm a huge Rez fan, and I can really get into the zone with that game. It's an interactive game, music wise, on a set predefined path. I was certainly impressed by it, but something that is freer flowing would definitely impress me even more.

It seems to me that the people who enjoy VLM2 so much are enjoying it on the technical level as well as on the visual level. Take someone who is driving a car that they built by themselves. They now how it works, and are absolutely thrilled by the fact that something they built can drive them wherever they want to. When they turn the steering wheel, they know the exact direction that every gear under the hood is turning in. When they hit the breaks, they know that the break line is squeezing the brake pads against the rotors that they installed themselves.

Everyone else in the car though doesn't really care about that. They just want to make it to the movie theatre on time!

By the way Jeff, I really have to give you credit on the way you handle criticism of your work. It's not the easiest thing in the world to take, and you have handled it marvelously. So far, I am very impressed with what I have seen with VLM3 and with Unity. Considering what you have produced in so little time actually scares me. I'm afraid that I'll have to drop everything in my life and play the game when it comes out, the same thing I did when I got T2K. Keep up the good work!

[dtj]

My point is, resolutions do matter to people, and they matter a lot. This is all part of personal preference, and I can't help it if some people (a lot of them actually) have different tastes than you DTJ.

A lot of them? Yes, you're right. Far more people misunderstand Yak's work than actually get it. You fall in there.

Duncan Phillips once said that "The purpose of art is to stimulate the appreciation of life and to intensify the joy of living." That is my experience of the VLMs - from Colourspace to Jag-VLM and now, to VLM-3. Concerns such as "blurriness" and "resolution" simply don't enter into it.

Yak captures (with his coding) what I can only term as fleeting illusions of reality. VLM-2 is overflowing with these illusions. He dissolves the individualities of contour within an ambience of light - hence the term Virtual Light Machine. Yak is a poet of light. He's what I call a luminist. I see in his VLMs glimpses of distant landscapes, unknown places, and entirely distinct new worlds - and the ability to control these onscreen impressions is something that has to be learned. You have to devote yourself to the art. Not just expect it to "wow" you. VLMs are as much about what you bring to them as they are about what they bring to you. You've missed that completely.

To apply such technological notions as "resolution" to such a medium is idiocy. Sorry to have to tell you that, but it is so. Yak's work falls clearly into the realm of impressionist art. He is continuing to evolve his style, too. And there were people at the time who rejected the imagery from the impressionist movement - remember the view the realists took?

Having just seen some startling examples at the Phoenix Art Museum, I was overwhelmed when I realized VLM-2 fits in with Monet and John Constable, as well as into the post-impressionist movement which includes Cezanne and van Gogh.

Think about it - impressionism attempts to capture fleeting visual sensations; it uses short, choppy brushstrokes; it rejects the use of black (think about VLM-2 - not a lot of black in there at all); blurred outlines and softened forms are the most common; and an awareness of current research in optics and the perception of color - and of technology. Yak is using technology in ways that it was never intended.

VLM-2 is all about mood and tonality; perhaps with more life experience under your belt you might start to get that; let the technological issues go. VLM-2 is not about the technology. It transcends that.

Oh, and sorry about the "asswipe" thing.

[Yak]

Heh... I'm just a toymaker. I like shiny things .

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(:-) - Yak
/

[Dave]

My point is, resolutions do matter to people, and they matter a lot. This is all part of personal preference, and I can't help it if some people (a lot of them actually) have different tastes than you DTJ.

A lot of them? Yes, you're right. Far more people misunderstand Yak's work than actually get it. You fall in there.

Duncan Phillips once said that "The purpose of art is to stimulate the appreciation of life and to intensify the joy of living." That is my experience of the VLMs - from Colourspace to Jag-VLM and now, to VLM-3. Concerns such as "blurriness" and "resolution" simply don't enter into it.

Yak captures (with his coding) what I can only term as fleeting illusions of reality. VLM-2 is overflowing with these illusions. He dissolves the individualities of contour within an ambience of light - hence the term Virtual Light Machine. Yak is a poet of light. He's what I call a luminist. I see in his VLMs glimpses of distant landscapes, unknown places, and entirely distinct new worlds - and the ability to control these onscreen impressions is something that has to be learned. You have to devote yourself to the art. Not just expect it to "wow" you. VLMs are as much about what you bring to them as they are about what they bring to you. You've missed that completely.

To apply such technological notions as "resolution" to such a medium is idiocy. Sorry to have to tell you that, but it is so. Yak's work falls clearly into the realm of impressionist art. He is continuing to evolve his style, too. And there were people at the time who rejected the imagery from the impressionist movement - remember the view the realists took?

Having just seen some startling examples at the Phoenix Art Museum, I was overwhelmed when I realized VLM-2 fits in with Monet and John Constable, as well as into the post-impressionist movement which includes Cezanne and van Gogh.

Think about it - impressionism attempts to capture fleeting visual sensations; it uses short, choppy brushstrokes; it rejects the use of black (think about VLM-2 - not a lot of black in there at all); blurred outlines and softened forms are the most common; and an awareness of current research in optics and the perception of color - and of technology. Yak is using technology in ways that it was never intended.

VLM-2 is all about mood and tonality; perhaps with more life experience under your belt you might start to get that; let the technological issues go. VLM-2 is not about the technology. It transcends that.

Yes, you're totally right. You do see VLM2 in a much different light than I do. I've been more into the instantly gratifying eye-candy rather than the artistic side of it. What the fuck, I'm going to go and mess with my VLM2 for about an hour or two tonight before I go to bed. From what I'm hearing, I need to spend more time getting into it. Many artistic creations do take a long time for someone to finally "get it". I think that this may be the case. I'll try this time not to look at it in a pure visual sense, but in an artistic sense as well. I don't think that I can really argue with someone whose written tons of music for the damn thing. Didn't you write something in college about it as well? Nuff said I guess.

DTJ, Yak, sorry if I have offended you in any way. I can understand when someone doesn't interpret artwork in the correct manner. I'll write a follow up to this after I have given some time to tinker with VLM2 some more.

Oh, and sorry about the "asswipe" thing.

Don't worry about it! I can see how I easily offended you before. No hard feelings mate! From past posts, it's rather safe to assume that we both have many different viewpoints when it comes to different issues. Being only 21, I'm at a much different point in my life than you are, so clashes here and there are unavoidable. I learned very early in life to listen to what older folkie have to say. They tend to be rather interesting, insightful, and intelligent...

...but I still think you're anti-M$ stance does go a little bit too far.

[dtj]

...but I still think you're anti-M$ stance does go a little bit too far.

It's just fear, Dave. I'm afraid of M$. Sorry I seem so mean.

[matt]

I used to like the one that came with the PSX but I have not seen it for a while.

The Psygnosis thing? Yea, it was fairly pleasant to look at, but it didn't seem to respond to the audio very well at all, IMHO.

Yeah, it never but i liked it's interactivity. I have two versions of it, one with Dolphins and one without. One was on the shipped Demo disc, the other i think a later demo disc or mag cover cd.

Does anybody know which individual at Psygnosis programmed these?

matt

[matt]

I don’t hate VLM2. It’s very neat and all, but I like VLM better, and I like Geiss/Milkdrop better.

That is a snippet from one of the best posts I have read on this board, and I've been here since day 1. Thanks Dave. I think certain people (dtj, jeff) were quick to jump on Ophion as he could be seen as slamming their 'wares. I think, as you, he was just letting his feelings out. That is a good thing!

So, here's my input into the VLM-2 debate: i both love it and loath it. I shall explain...

I'd only ever seen screenshots of JagVLM, and had been dreaming of NUON for years. I'd played with Cathuga on my old 486SX, did the usual Winamp, Mediaplayer, iTunes hop-skip-jump and finally ended up being able to go VLM-2 with my Samsung N504 late last year.

At first, I was disappointed, it was blurrier and more erratic than i had expected and some of the 152 presets are not to my taste.

So I played some T3K. I was that unimpressed.

Over the next few weeks, VLM-2 slowly burrowed under my skin. I got a Logitech pad and the fun began. I started to find the right CDs that made the right patterns, for me, appear on screen. I started interacting. I put it on at parties. I started having fun and falling in love with this thing.

Yak is a poet of light. He's what I call a luminist. I see in his VLMs glimpses of distant landscapes, unknown places, and entirely distinct new worlds - and the ability to control these onscreen impressions is something that has to be learned. You have to devote yourself to the art. Not just expect it to "wow" you. VLMs are as much about what you bring to them as they are about what they bring to you. You've missed that completely.

A great piece from DTJ, one of my favourite people on this forum. His outlook on the VLM is even more enthusiastic than mine and slightly different. I dream of roads and rivers, of faces (you know the preset!) and trees. I twist Llama-fied presets into a mesh of rotating splines, I lock down the binary trees so that my screen is filled with a bunch of pretty flowers all dancing to the beat of an angelic vocal. Hell, I'll have to make a video!

Now it is part of my life, I play CDs on the NUON rather than on my hifi. I am a self-tought VLM operator, and can seemingly sense what effect it will jump to next and with the aid of the N504 advanced controls can hold an effect, lock the parameter stick at shock-o'clock and jump from mesmerising pattern to mesmerising pattern. I can almost make myself cry. I am, however, very happy.

So, to sum up. I've loathed it (and still do loath some of the more kaleidocope/shattering presets) but now I love it. I have learnt how to use VLM-2, how to coax it into taking me on a journey that stops by all my favourite places. Sometimes I do not want to come back...

here's to the next chapter.
matt

ps: i vote for this thread to be archived.

[cyric100]

ps: i vote for this thread to be archived.

Seconded.

[Dave]

...but I still think you're anti-M$ stance does go a little bit too far.

It's just fear, Dave. I'm afraid of M$. Sorry I seem so mean.

It's understandable. I haven't liked some thing that they have done in the past either. You're opinion does count and it is respected!

matt, I spent a good two hours late last night doing nothing but playing with VLM2. I managed to get into the zone. Yeah, wow, I hadn't experienced that before. I was seeing shit that wasn't there, but it really was. It actually looks so simple, yet it's so complex. I need much more time to experiment with it. But, I think that I've started to see the light. I finally realized what DTJ was talking about with the resolution and all. When you get into it, resolution is completely out of mind. Everything just fucking blurs into clarity inside of your head.

I powered up MilkDrop today, and although I still think that it looks cool, there wasn't any zone effect at all. I tried and tried, but to no prevail. It's more like a screen saver to me now than anything else. I think that my simple little mind has been broken, and reconstructed into something of awe. VLM2 might have broke Geiss/MilkDrop and fixed itself, if that's possible. Yeah, I really need to spend some more time with this. Too fucking bad my Nuon is at home and not in my dorm.

I'll post something here in a week or two after I play with this thing some more. It definitely takes a lot of time to get into, but now I can see that it's actually really worth it.

I'm also extremely tempted to get another Jaguar CD unit just to play with VLM1 again. I sold mine long ago.

[Dave]

ps: i vote for this thread to be archived.

Seconded.

Thirded.

[Dr. M]

Then it's unanimous (depending on when Gribbles moves this to the topic archive.)

[Sickboy]

As a privileged VLM-3 crew member, I've just returned from a weekend sesh at Jeff's. I know naathing about Jag/Nuon VLM, but I feel the urge to report that VLM-3 is, more and more, an exceptionally beautiful thing. dtj was dead-on about impressionism. Unity is expressionism.

Highlight of the weekend was a chill-out session to Porcupine Tree's 'Signify'. We were really letting the thing breathe - exploring the subtle mood-shifts, exploiting the space in the music. I love it when Yak himself leaps up and down, shouting: "Fuck me! That is beautiful. I've never seen THAT before!"

And more-than-willing spectator Shob had plenty to offer, too ("Fuck!"... "Jesus - that is FUCKED!").

Great, great work, Yak. Whatever the individual preferences for blurry/non-blurry/whatever-the-fuck, everyone's right behind ya.

[Yak]

Yeah, the weekend session was one of the best yet. More and more this thing is becoming like an instrument, and I absolutely love the fact that I can be surprised and amazed at what comes out when other people take the controls and "play" it in their own particular style and end up producing things that I'd never seen before whilst playing it myself . One thing that is much better with the "new" VLM-3 presets (as opposed to the Warp-Rave-era presets) is that we have a much greater capacity for interpreting different styles - Warp Rave era VLM3 was great for the full-on stuff, the new version covers that but also provides a lot of scope for lovely chill-out stylee stuff too.

I'm really quite excited as to what this thing is going to be like after I have had a year or so to work on it .

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(:-) - Yak
/

[RiK]

ps: i vote for this thread to be archived.

Seconded.

Thirded.

Well, Gribbles is on holiday this week, but your wish is my command....