The Dr Who thread

Inane baanter or words of wisdom - you decide...
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Post by KlaxonCow »

Col wrote:Some peoples comments on Outpost Gallifrey have to be seen to be believed! I thought that was an excellent episode, whereas some knobhead thinks it was 'the worst episode of the new Who'.

I mean, wtf?! 8O
Don't worry. It's probably because it had a woman in it, which scared them. :lol:
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Post by KlaxonCow »

Darkflame wrote:
One thing though, I am guessing he didn't go back for her in the Tardis because of the laws of time or something?
Is a good point.
They could have used the Tardis a number of times there...rather then depending on dumb luck to get a portal working again.

Storywise it might have made more sense to put the tardis out of action, or just said something like "The tardis dosnt work well near magic portals"...something to point to way they couldnt use the tardis.
Actually, no.

Not to be too geeky here but I remember that "the Five Doctors" show they did where the five Doctor Whos all met up at the same time and this whole thing was explained.

Moffat clearly knows the proper "rules" for this while that writer in the last series does not (the episode with Rose's father last series totally breaks these established rules and is just a total cock-up by the writer, which they really shouldn't have allowed).

The TARDIS does not allow the Doctor to ever return to the exact same place and time.

Because this does, indeed, break the "laws of time" and creates a paradox.

In that "Five Doctors" (though I saw it at the time, so this is going by my possibly faulty recollection of the show), they specifically state this when the Doctors first meet up because, of course, for them to have met, the TARDIS's circuitry which is meant to prevent them ever bumping into each other must have been overridden by some "force" which pulled them all to this same time and place.

The concept is pretty simple and a hundred time travel movies have used the "paradox problem" to create an interesting plotline - e.g. Back to the Future.

What if Peter Davidson was to tell Tom Baker how he was going to die to prevent him dying?

Then he wouldn't have regenerated into Peter Davidson. Then Peter Davidson wouldn't be there. Therefore, Peter Davidson wouldn't be there to tell Tom Baker how to avoid being killed. Therefore, Tom Baker wouldn't avoid being killed and would regenerate into Peter Davidson. Except that if Peter Davidson was there, he'd tell Tom Baker how he got killed and then he wouldn't get killed. And so on and so on and so on.

In Doctor Who, it never has time paradoxes (except the odd special story, like "the Five Doctors" where it was explained that the TARDIS was taken over to force it to break the "laws of time" but that ordinarily, the TARDIS's circuits won't allow the "laws of time" to be violated).

This has been explained previously in the original series that the TARDIS itself does not allow it.

Moffat is a better writer than some of the others because he bothered to check this up.

Rose does suggest in the episode: "can't we use the TARDIS?"

And the Doctor correctly answers her: "No, because we're already part of the events".

This is the correct reply according to the established "rules" that was in the original series about the operation of the TARDIS and why the Doctor cannot ever "go back and fix it".

That "Rose's Father" episode was an anolamy and it really shouldn't have happened with explanation.

Also, the Doctor himself would never breach "the laws of time" knowingly - except with a damn good reason - because of the paradoxes that could result.

In other words, the TARDIS prevents them ever going to somewhere where they already are because if they met themselves in the past then that creates paradoxes and totally fucks up time and the universe and lots of other nasty shit.

Unlike Back to the Future and other time travel shows, the TARDIS is specifically designed to PREVENT the "oh no, I've accidentally stopped my parents meeting, so now I won't be born" time paradoxes.

The true cock-up was the "Rose's Father" episode which totally defied and broke the established "rules" of how the Doctor's time travelling actually works (although, it did show time paradoxes, which neatly explains why they are a fucking disaster that the Doctor doesn't want to happen).

I suppose the excuse for the "Rose's Father" episode in the last series was that:

1. The Doctor and Rose could go there the first time because there wasn't a danger of meeting themselves (and that's all the TARDIS's circuits prevent).

2. The Doctor didn't expect Rose to fuck things up because he'd specifically told her not to do so (e.g. the Doctor was manually preventing the time paradox - or so he thought - by just ensuring Rose wouldn't fuck things up. They originally were just supposed to be watching, not changing anything).

3. Once she'd fucked it up, he was forced to override the TARDIS's circuits and travel back to the same time and place to fix things or, of course, the consequence of the time paradox would eventually mean that Rose wouldn't exist and he was willing to take the risk in order to save Rose's life (this is possible because it's the TARDIS which prevents the paradoxes but the Doctor can - if necessary - turn off that part of the TARDIS's circuits to allow him to do it).

But what doesn't add up about that episode is what the hell those "time monsters" were. That was some bullshit invented just to put a "nasty monster" into the episode.

Ignore that episode. It was a fucked up one that didn't make sense.

The established "rules" of the show is that TARDIS keeps track of where the Doctor has been and does not let him go back to where he's already been - he can't meet himself - in order to avoid time paradoxes that fuck everything up.

And this episode does fit in with that perfectly - Moffat knows his Doctor Who properly - when the Doctor replies to Rose: "No, we can't use the TARDIS because we're already a part of events."

In other words, if they did go back in the TARDIS, then the Doctor would meet himself and create a paradox.

The Doctor is allowed to change time - he does it all the time - but he's not allowed to change his own timeline (time according to how he has lived it).

Otherwise, think about it: He could go back and save the Timelords.

Doctor Who's version of how space and time works is slightly different to other time travel shows - there is no consideration given to "the butterfly effect", for example, whatsoever - but it does have its own self-consistent "rules" which did basically make sense.

After all, in every single episode, you could say "why doesn't he just go back in time and try again?".

The problems you see in every time travel movie - like Marty McFly stopping his own parents meeting - is basically the explanation why and, in Doctor Who, this never happens because the TARDIS is designed to keep track of where he's been and never let him go back there ever again to stop all that bullshit that happens in Back to the Future happening.

So, you see, the Doctor is smarter than Doc Brown in Back to the Future because the Timelords thought of this problem and built their time machines in such a way as to stop the bullshit happening.

Or, at least, that was the reasonable explanation given in the original series. Fuck knows what RTD's gone and done to change it and fuck it up so that it doens't make any sense anymore.

Sorry, I sound like a Doctor Who geek here. It's just that I remember the reasons given for this from the original series. :D
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Post by KlaxonCow »

But while I'm posting, one more point:

Doctor Who is not "just a kids' show" and it does matter that the storylines make at least rough sense.

And, no, I'm not saying that because I'm an anally retentive geek.


It's been such a long time absent from our TV screens that maybe people have forgotten that there is such thing as a "family show".

A show that's appropriate and fun for the kids but is just as entertaining and logical for the adults at the same time.

There is no contradiction there.


But maybe it's been so long since we've seen any decent examples of this on British TV (although, on American TV, there's a perfect example: "The Simpsons"), that people have forgotten that it can be done and that there is no contradiction in making a show that the kids can watch but which is no less interesting for adults to watch too.


That was what Doctor Who (and, more generally, Saturday night TV) was all about. A bunch of shows where the whole family could all sit down and everyone was equally entertained by it, regardless of age or gender.


That's why the "empty child" was one of the best episodes in the last series because it had the wartime setting for granny, it had psychological horror for the adults (how spine-chilling was that "mummy!" cry? Fuck your age, that's fucking spooky stuff), "hiding under the table" visual horror for the kids, Jack had his tractor beams and ray guns and cloaking devices yet the wartime background was equally interesting in its own right (the idea of a bunch of orphans running around stealing food when the Blitz was on is a whole drama series in its own right).

Heck, RTD even threw in that Jack was bisexual to tip the hat (pink hat with a feather and matching handbag, of course) to even the gay audience that they aren't entirely being forgotten here, evne if not traditionally "family" in the usual way.


That episode was excellent and worked brilliantly, exactly because it balanced and pitched the whole thing correclty: FAMILY, not just "kids' show".


This Moffat episode also got it right but in a slightly different way. I suppose this one was more of a "for the ladies" bodice-ripper thing but then had the made-to-measure "monster under the bed" for the kids. It had the futuristic spaceship and Rose and Mickey running around looking like troopers from "Aliens" (Mickey even did a pretty nifty little "I'm a commando" roll along the floor).

It even threw in a socialist political comment, when the Doctor made a somewhat post-revolutionary comment in pre-revolutionary France about how "titles are meaningless" (to which our flirteous little mistress of the King mocks the Doctor by pointing out that "Doctor" is, of course, a title).


Doctor Who never was a "kids' show".

Going right back to the start, it was commissioned as a drama serial.


Again, the problem is, perhaps, that TV has changed to always being about "targetting programming" that the idea of a show that's actually not supposed to be "for kids", "for teenagers", "for adult men", "for adult women" is something people seem to have forgotten is possible.


This is the one thing I'd criticise about the new series:

There are too many single "monster of the week" episodes.

There should be more two / three / four parters - which the original series used to have all the time - so that each story can be given enough time to develop.

The SJS episode is the perfect example. It was good except that to cram everything into a single episode, something had to suffer and it was the storyline.

That was the other thing about "the empty child" episodes: That was a two-parter and allowed the story to be paced properly. It also allows there to be a more complex plot and a few twists and turns (e.g. multiple "chase" scenes, confronting the "evil monster" a few times instead of only really bothering to meet them at the end to kill them off).

Two-parters can also allow a "Empire Strikes Back moment" that things are going badly for the Doctor for a cliff-hanger at the end of episode 1 but then he comes back and wins in episode 2.


No, Doctor Who isn't Star Trek and it doesn't - and shouldn't be - obsessed with all the pedantic fine details.

But, in the same vein, that also means it should be about the drama first and foremost.

The thing that made the original series work - even with such terrible special effects and low budgets - is that it was a good drama show for all the family. The sci-fi bit was just the excuse to have a new drama - a new angle, a new problem, a new monster - every week.


Drama should be self-consistent and it should make sense and the story should never take a back seat to anything.


Longer episodes would, I think, help to cure the minor flaws in the new series and for someone to sit RTD and the other writers down to just remind them: "Not kids' sci-fi show, but family drama show with sci-fi setting".

That's what was different about Doctor Who to make it stand out from the crowd and make it popular around the world and make everyone vote to have it brought back:

Because it's not Star Trek sci-fi geekiness. Nor is it "kids' stuff". Nor is it "adult". Nor is it "period drama". Nor is it "cop show". Nor is it any of these things.

It is ALL of these things simultaneously.

That is the whole point and the strength of the series.

It can be about a school one week and then it's a "period costume drama bodice-ripper with a flirteous hint of romance". Then it can be "evil cyborgs" next week.

That was always the real reason for the TARDIS: It was an excuse for a family drama show to change itself to something new every week.


Tonight's episode has received good reviews here exactly because this episode hit that particular nail on the head.


As was mentioned on the "Confidential", the scene where she could walk - in full French period costume - onto a futuristic spaceship was: "now, that is so very Doctor Who".

The show is, at its best, as eccentric as its hero.


Doctor Who is not "for kids". It's for the family, which includes the kids.

It's not "sci-fi", it's a drama serial that has sci-fi elements (though, if you look real closely, the sci-fi is never the point of any episode: It's just the excuse to have that episode happen. The sci-fi is more magical than technical. It's just the excuse to make all these mad situations happen every week).


It doesn't matter if the sci-fi is bullshit but it DOES matter if the logic of the story is bullshit.

Good Doctor Who should simply be plain old-fashioned good story-telling.

Put it this way, Doctor Who should be modern Jules Verne or H.G.Wells. That is the vibe it started with and should be aiming for.

And, no, Jules Verne and H.G.Wells were not scientifically accurate most of the time but that didn't matter because the stories were good and self-consistent.

Just plain old-fashioned good story-telling. That's it.

There should be no more "formula" to it than that. It shouldn't be "aimed" at anyone - kids, adults - but aimed at everyone.


The new series has been good because they have roughly got that right but it has fallen down here and there where the odd writer has kind of lost the plot on that basic idea.

Before writing an episode, they should read some Jules Verne and H.G.Wells and watch the Quatermass Experiment or "the Day the Earth stood still". Then just modernise that and there you are: Doctor Who. :D
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Post by oddbob0 »

Considering Mr Kneale has gone on record before now to state how pissed off he was with Dr Who stealing his storylines, I think its probably best if they leave the Quatermass stuff be... (well, beyond a tip of the hat like in the Christmas Invasion), and thinking about it - probably best to leave all the other stuff be too. Why modernise Quatermass stories when there's millions of new tales to be told? And more so, why modernise Quatermass stories when Nigel Kneale is still alive and able to write?

Honestly, I don't notice the plot holes because for 3/4 of an hour every Saturday both me and Mrs Bob are totally glued to the television, have brew - sorted. Remakes IRC dies for 3/4 of an hour too as everyone nobs off to watch it. I don't want to analyse it, I just want to be entertained and the new show does that perfectly for me so much so I usually end up with a numb arm from sitting still too long.

I don't ever want it to be 'old' Doctor Who again, and I'll echo HGFB's comments about just how much of a struggle it is to go back and watch some of those stories now - they're dull and occasionally pantomime in comparison. Leave Classic Who in the bubble it belongs - great for its time (or not in some of the JNT era stories) and let new Who flourish.

And give me a season long story arc with different stories each week over 4 parts of running around corridors and tripping over *anyday*.

The best thing that ever happened to Dr Who was it being taken away from the fans and their interweaving bollocks plotlines and cannon obsessed wankeries and given back to the public.

As for Fathers Day breaking the rules? What rules?

The idea that Dr Who ever had any rules is laughable at best, they made it up as they went along and once the series got cancelled, then the fans started joining up the dots to make it fit a coherant world of their making.*

It was one of the single most impressive pieces of television drama I've seen, so you can stuff any rules where the sun don't shine as far as I'm concerned if it produces more stuff like that.

I don't expect everyone to like it, I don't expect everyone to think the same as me about it - but I adore what its become and wouldn't want it any other way. :)

*Excluding JNT era continuity obsessed bollocks, of course
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Post by KlaxonCow »

You didn't understand a word I said.


Where did I say classic Who was better?


I can show you where I said that the new series has got it mostly spot-on.

I can show you where I praised this week's episode and "empty child".


But, go on, feel free to write an attacking reply which has FUCK ALL to do with what I was actually saying.


How does the word "drama" contradict the idea of a series long arc?

Since when does "drama" not include character-based stuff and emotions?


If your definition of the word "drama" fails to include this as an integral part of what the word means then you're fucking reading the wrong dictionaries, mate.


I said that the new series could have had better pacing for some episodes by making them two parters.

And I noted that "empty child" was one of the best episodes last series because it was able to pace itself well over two parts.


Did I say "while you're at it, totally fuck it up and change it"?

No, I don't think I did.

What's wrong with the comment that some of these stories would be better paced across two parts instead of cramming it into one?


Where did I say "steal plotlines"?

I don't recall saying that.

I do recall mentioning good old-fashioned story-telling.

You don't think the new series does that?

I think it does.

Or does your dictionary also mis-define what "modernise" means too?


Don't know what planet you're living on, if you think it doesn't achieve that and think that the comment that it should stick with that - maybe concentrate more on that aspect - is incompatible with liking the new series.


Thank you.

I enjoyed receiving your hatred for no fucking reason that related to what I was saying at all.

That's so polite and courteous of you.

When you've learnt how to read, please come back and we'll talk some more.
oddbob0 wrote:but I adore what its become and wouldn't want it any other way. :)
I adore what it's become. But I would want it another way: Better again.

If you think that's wrong - to continue the search always for ways to constantly improve things - then NEVER get yourself a creative job that needs imagination. You'd be a fucking liability.

Everything can be improved and there's fuck all wrong with analysing something to see how it can be made better.

Think about it: If RTD and the others who worked on the new series had done that with the classic Who then the new series you adore so much wouldn't fucking exist.

It must be right because it was exactly this which created the new series you like so much.

They looked at the old Who and used their creativity and imaginations to improve on it. What the hell is wrong with doing the same to the new series too, to consider how it might be improved again further?

When you have a winning formula then you refine that formula further.

If you think you're just supposed to stick with it blindly then you don't know what you're talking about because three series later, you've done it all and start repeating yourself and the audience turns off because it's gone shite and boring.

If you think art is static then you thought wrong. It must always evolve or it will die.
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Post by oddbob0 »

KlaxonCow wrote:You didn't understand a word I said.


Where did I say classic Who was better?
Where did I say you said Classic Who was better?

What I said, for the evidently more hard of reading than I am was:
me wrote: I don't ever want it to be 'old' Doctor Who again, and I'll echo HGFB's comments about just how much of a struggle it is to go back and watch some of those stories now - they're dull and occasionally pantomime in comparison. Leave Classic Who in the bubble it belongs - great for its time (or not in some of the JNT era stories) and let new Who flourish.

And give me a season long story arc with different stories each week over 4 parts of running around corridors and tripping over *anyday*.
Its an observation. I like the fact that its not stretched over 3/4 parts anymore. I like the fact that if there's a slightly off episode I only have to wait 1 more week for a fix. I like the fact that its not 3 or 4 episodes like Classic Who was.. Which just in case you now try and tell me that you never said it should be stretched that far, I'll quote for posterity:
There are too many single "monster of the week" episodes.

There should be more two / three / four parters - which the original series used to have all the time - so that each story can be given enough time to develop.
Spotted the link now? I have no problems with the format of the show as it is now. 1 or 2 parts is fine and I enjoy it that way. Anything else to me is a step backwards to the days of old Who.
But, go on, feel free to write an attacking reply which has FUCK ALL to do with what I was actually saying.
Only it does - but here's something you might not have picked up on - my post is also in general to some of the other points made in this thread. But if you want to go ahead with a persecution complex, be my guest...

How does the word "drama" contradict the idea of a series long arc?

Since when does "drama" not include character-based stuff and emotions?


If your definition of the word "drama" fails to include this as an integral part of what the word means then you're fucking reading the wrong dictionaries, mate.
Again. Where did I say anything that implied any of that? You go off on one accusing me of not reading what you said and you've extrapolated a whole shitload of points from a few short paragraphs that plainly weren't there!

If you're referring to this:
me again wrote: As for Fathers Day breaking the rules? What rules?

The idea that Dr Who ever had any rules is laughable at best, they made it up as they went along and once the series got cancelled, then the fans started joining up the dots to make it fit a coherant world of their making.*

It was one of the single most impressive pieces of television drama I've seen, so you can stuff any rules where the sun don't shine as far as I'm concerned if it produces more stuff like that.
Then its got jack diddly squat to do with the series long plot arc and whatever other random points you've decided to throw into the argument. I'm pointing out that any rules or continuity in Doctor Who has been completely flexible - hence they made it up as they went along

Referring, in case you hadn't quite managed to make the link, to your comments that the writer got it wrong with Fathers Day.
Where did I say "steal plotlines"?

I don't recall saying that.

I do recall mentioning good old-fashioned story-telling.

You don't think the new series does that?

I think it does.

Or does your dictionary also mis-define what "modernise" means too?
*sighs*

You say go back, watch and modernise Quatermass - I point out that Nigel Kneale has a problem with Dr Who as he believes that they stole his plotlines lock, stock and barrel (which, lets face it - they did.) - so I say, well, best leave that idea alone. How on Earth do you "modernise" Quatermass style stories without paying at the very least a direct tribute to Mr Kneales works and most probably pissing him off *again* into the bargain?

Considering you've got the likes of Mark Gatiss writing for the show, its a bit daft to say that they need to go back and look at classic Science Fiction before writing for Who anyway - because most of the writers are Science Fiction fans and if they're not... who cares as long as they write a darn good tale? They don't need to go back and watch Quatermass, they don't need to go and read some Jules Verne. They just need to be able to write their own good material that doesn't have to be bogged down in years of tradition.

You can still write a good script without looking to the past.
Thank you.

I enjoyed receiving your hatred for no fucking reason that related to what I was saying at all.

That's so polite and courteous of you.

When you've learnt how to read, please come back and we'll talk some more.
I didn't direct an ounce of hatred in your direction, unless you happen to be someone who believes that Dr Who should continue to exist in the bizarre universe the fans have created for it. In which case, I wouldn't have had the slightest clue that you were one of those people from your post, so I still wouldn't be directing it at you.

Its called a disagreement. Or does your dictionary have a different definition of disagreement to mine?
oddbob0 wrote:but I adore what its become and wouldn't want it any other way. :)
insert rant here
And if you're going to selectively quote me to attempt to put words in my mouth, make sure you quote the entire relevant piece.
ickle me wrote: I don't expect everyone to like it, I don't expect everyone to think the same as me about it - but I adore what its become and wouldn't want it any other way.
You've just made a load of shit up from that quote which I plainly never said nor implied in any possible way - nowhere do I suggest that art should remain static or the production team shouldn't move on and with the times, but lets not let that get in the way of a good old rant, eh?

In my opinion, the format is fine as it is. I'm happy with the format. Heck, I love the format. But thats my opinion as I clearly and plainly stated and just as you're entitled to yours, I'm entitled to disagree with you and you are entitled to disagree with me.

There's no need to make shit up though.
\m/
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Post by Snakey »

Well, fuck me.

That was bloody great.

Still a bit pissed off that were, what, 1/3rd of the way through the series and this is the first episode that's actually been any good, though...

I just hope they keep up this quality for the rest of the series.

But yeah.

That was bloody great.
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Post by phattslagg »

Agreed. It was everything a Doctor Who episode should be, minus a good cliff-hanger.

Sorry, but anyone who thinks it was 'weak' should really stop watching it altogether, and try something completely different for entertainment, i.e self-flagellation or something.
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Post by Snakey »

Yeah, I'd agree with any of the other eps being 'a bit weak' - but this one? And this one is 'weakest so far'? Fuck RIGHT off :lol:

Genuine :lol: moment for me:

"You're NOT keeping the horse."
"Well I let YOU keep Mickey!"
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Post by Flabio »

It's worth listening to the commentary track for this one just for the bit where Stephen Moffat goes off on one about what the next episode would've been like if they had brought Reinette on board.
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Post by Public Hermit »

Liked the episode too, but I really don't rate Tennant as the doctor.

He's like some geeky kid joyriding through space and time. Fair enough if he's enjoying it, but he doesn't lend any gravity to the part at the same time, which is essentional IMHO.
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Post by Tetra Elemental »

Funny as fuck reading this thread right through. We're seeing the birth of a new generation of Who fanboys and the associated fanwankery that goes with it. It's history in the making! :lol:
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Post by TFO »

Before he made the dramatic entrance, I said to the Missus, 'theres an old poem that goes'...

"...A mirror's not complete until a man rides through it..."

Lo and behold, he did.

Did the writer know of this poem, or am I just a bit confused with my references again?
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Post by Stevo »

Just watched this one.......But I didnt notice any Torchwood
reference....Anyway that was an excellent episode and I
feel that David Tennent is getting better with each episode
Now for the Cybermen :D
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Post by zip accident »

TFO wrote:

'theres an old poem that goes'...

"...A mirror's not complete until a man rides through it..."
Hmm, anything to do with this?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASI ... 33-4990855

Note the previous title in that pair:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASI ... 33-4990855

If you're not imagining it, Donaldson obviously reads the same poems you do.
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