Official Nintendo Fanboy Smugness & Gloating Thread

[craigt]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4772109.stm

Nintendo shares see Wii benefits

Nintendo shares have soared after its new console stole the show at the E3 games expo in Los Angeles.

The Wii (pronounced "we") grabbed attention with its controller based on motion sensors rather than buttons.

The positive reaction, coupled with news that it will hit the shops before Christmas to compete with the Sony PlayStation 3, encouraged investors.

Nintendo shares climbed 6.2% to 19,710 yen having gone as high as 19,890 yen - its highest level since April 2002.

Looks like Nintendo are seeing the benefit of their E3 presentation already. Up, up and away!

[Rod_S]

PGC have posted another hands-on impressions of Zelda, and it's pretty critical of the control setup Nintendo have use for the Wii version.

http://www.planetgamecube.com/impressio ... rtid=11567

Eurogamer seem split on the controls. Fishing = good, the rest = shit.

http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=64740

The Edge Red Steel article voices a lot of concerns, the gun aiming in particular. Hmm.

[Atty]

PGC have posted another hands-on impressions of Zelda, and it's pretty critical of the control setup Nintendo have use for the Wii version.

http://www.planetgamecube.com/impressio ... rtid=11567

Eurogamer seem split on the controls. Fishing = good, the rest = shit.

http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=64740

The Edge Red Steel article voices a lot of concerns, the gun aiming in particular. Hmm.

That eurogamer article does seem remarkably negative - not so much at the controls, (although they're still very critical of the twitchy aiming) but more because the game is too much like regular Zelda. Considering the very small amount known about the game, it seems a bit early to start judging it on that, really. After all, Majora's mask had the classic dungeon structure, but it was still a very new, unique experience to play.

Red Steel does seem to be getting rather a lot of concerned glances at the moment. the control scheme it 's using doesn't appear to be nearly as polished as the one they're using in MP3. Hopefully they'll get that sorted before launch.

[Samus]

The problem here is that, particularly in the case of this demo, the aiming is incredibly twitchy. Almost unplayably so, with each use of the bow and arrows the most stupidly tense use of small hand movements since the last time you played Operation. Against an enraged Tyrannosaurus Rex. It seems so frankly tacked on that I really question the need for it at all, but perhaps with the pointer's sensitivity fixed it will turn out to be a more vital, and immersive part of the game.

This is strange, looking at the vids the cursor seems very smooth (not twitchy like they say), and the difference between a good player and a shit player is just that. Going by the vids, the problem is in the user. Hmmm. This on the other hand is more of a point for me:

Indeed, playing this short demo I was amazed by just how disillusioned I've become. Having already played through and completed Zelda 64 and The Wind Waker, I can only hope the game offers at least something more than the tired mechanic of going to a dungeon, finding an item in the dungeon that is critical to beating that very dungeon, and then killing the boss with that item too. Repeatedly. Twilight Princess is really going to have to offer something more, and using the Wii controller in such a predictable way isn't going to cut it.

Of course this is only speculation, but this is most likely how it's going to be. Dungeon, key, new item. Doesn't mean that it can't be fun, mind. To me the use of Wii controller (if it's as good as it looks from the vids) would be a good thing and why wouldn't they use it as a bow if it works, predictable or not. Lol.

[xav]

And we have a winner!

xav

Woohoo!

Not that I'm too worried about how the sensor works, but I don't quite get how a camera thingy would make it go. All sorts of games have you hold the remote in all sorts of ways, including hands cupped on either side of the ends like a steering wheel. Obviously something's transmitted between remote and sensor bar (wouldn't be much of a sensor otherwise) but the camera thing doesn't seem to fit.

If my Award Winning theory is correct, then the "sensor bar" is just a support for a couple of IR LEDs (or a couple of groups, as it now seems). The LEDs are then picked up by a camera in the controller, and the relative movement of them in the camera's image is enough to track somebody moving the controller like a laser pointer - up, down, left and right - as well as determine movement towards or away from the sensor bar.

In addition to the camera, the remote is believed (known?) to contain various "MEMS" devices - accelerometers and/or gyroscopes, which track the movement of the controller body itself. These are almost certainly not accurate enough for absolute positioning (so can't be the answer to how the "laser pointer" mode works), but are good enough for golf swings, sword swings, or tracking how horizontal the controller is (Excite Truck).

Some games will use "laser pointer" (LP) mode. Others will use MEMS mode. Many will use both, in one form or another (LP to pick from on-screen menus, MEMS to swing a sword - possibly with additional data from LP to more accurately track the sword swing as it comes into view of the sensor bar).

So all the information about the movement of the controller is acquired by the controller itself. It sends that data back to the console via a Bluetooth link (with the other end of the link either in the console, or possibly even in the sensor bar).

But while we're on the subject, Nintendo have already stated that you can remove both sensors and stick them anywhere you like, so it's not triangulating shit. The thing knows which way up it is. That's all it needs.

God I forgot all about the removing the sensors. They can't be doing the
angles just from the brightness and position in the sensor? That would be
somewhat lacking in accuracy I'd have thought.

I suspect that they've abandoned the idea of making the sensors removable; if they're fixed then it lets them do calibration-free absolute positioning rather than just relative positioning.

But assuming that they are still removable, what angles are you referring to? I haven't seen anything that indicates that the LP mode works while you're moving past the sensor bar - except for the early promo video with the chap leaping over the back of the chair as he played a game

I'm guessing that LP mode works pretty much as a laser pointer. You stay in roughly one place, and gesture with your wrist to aim the pointer wherever you want it. I would guess that making large movements in LP mode would be less accurate. Indeed, could that be the cause of the "hard to control" reports - that the players were trying too hard and should have been making smaller movements?

Depends what you mean by designed though really. If you're a systems integrator you should only devote R&D to the bits you can add value to. If you can buy off-the-shelf or semi-customised parts from suppliers cheaper enough, it's not worth building that part yourself.

Absolutely, it makes perfect sense, and it's the only sane thing to do. Its just that suggesting "Nintendo bought tech from somebody else" seems to be interpreted by some people as slagging them off, when in fact it's entirely the opposite. They'd have been mad to try to recreate something themselves that was already available, and probably has had a lot of time and money spent on it already.

Yep, the genius of the controller isn't that Nintendo built every part from scratch, it's that they integrated it all. A camera-based tracking system is a known solution to a 2D tracking problem (eye-toy, or the "augmented reality" games on some phones (and Gizmondo?)). Adding a couple of reference points to make it 2D plus some degree of depth isn't a huge leap to make. MEMS devices aren't a Nintendo invention. Nor is a speaker in the controller.

But package the whole lot together into something that's not a traditional controller design - that's the genius.

I wonder how feasible a camera-based approach would be at the moment, without the LEDs (which i'm presuming Nintendo have patented). After all, I bet Sony/MS would like to get hold of a cheap light gun...

Very feasible, I would have thought. After all, it's only a wireless eye-toy but instead of a stationary camera tracking a moving object you have a moving camera tracking a stationary object. That object doesn't have to be LEDs (which are just a cheap and convenient thing to track) - it could be something like the big rectangle of light that is the TV.

But that would only get you a part of the Wii controller. And it would be an additional purchase rather than bundled with the system (additional novel controllers tend not to sell in huge numbers - certainly not the minimum 1:1 mapping for sales of the bundled controller, anyway). Sony, MS or even a third party could probably do something close to the Wii controller without stepping on Nintendo's patents, but they don't have the time that Nintendo have had to refine the details as much. I think they'll favour trying to push the existing camera peripherals into more gesture recognition instead.

[D.J.Fudge]

The problem here is that, particularly in the case of this demo, the aiming is incredibly twitchy. Almost unplayably so, with each use of the bow and arrows the most stupidly tense use of small hand movements since the last time you played Operation. Against an enraged Tyrannosaurus Rex. It seems so frankly tacked on that I really question the need for it at all, but perhaps with the pointer's sensitivity fixed it will turn out to be a more vital, and immersive part of the game.

This is strange, looking at the vids the cursor seems very smooth (not twitchy like they say), and the difference between a good player and a shit player is just that. Going by the vids, the problem is in the user. Hmmm.

Miyamoto talked to Joystiq about this

This is a kind of a slightly different case then what I just explained, but one example I can give would be with The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, which as you know takes advantage of the Wii remote for aiming with the bow. Some people found that when they were aiming with the bow, as they release the button to fire the arrow your aim would move slightly, and that would make it more difficult to hit the enemy. So the natural thinking was that maybe on the software and programming side we could make it so that even if your aim moves just a little bit as you release you'll still hit the target, kind of almost like an auto-aim type of feature. That was kind of the natural thinking in terms of how we could improve that.

But I went back to the team and I said, well, you know, if you think about it though aiming a bow is not something that's very easy to do. So the fact that you have to be very precise adds reality, it adds realism to the game. So rather than try and take that type of aiming system and change it into something that's more along the lines of a shooting game, it's better to retain that type of realism and challenge the player to really kind of get into the feeling of shooting a bow. I think often times people kind of have these old habits in creating games, that they always tend to try and resolve issues in the same way, even though resolving that issue may not be the best solution for that particular piece of software.

[Samus]

Yeah, exactly.

Btw. I think I quoted that a couple of pages ago too.

[Roobarb]

Very feasible, I would have thought. After all, it's only a wireless eye-toy but instead of a stationary camera tracking a moving object you have a moving camera tracking a stationary object. That object doesn't have to be LEDs (which are just a cheap and convenient thing to track) - it could be something like the big rectangle of light that is the TV.

Hmmm. Would tracking a TV work reliably if it was in front of a window?
Seems like more sophisticated image processing is required if you want to do more than track something known and simple like a few bright dots, as you have to start to worry about visual recognition. Well within the scope of a cam attached to the console, but would you be able to get something cheap enough and low enough power to put in the controller this year?

Nintendo's LED placements and alignments remind me of approach lighting systems for airports. Maybe i'm reading too much into it, but it seems to combine some of the principles of the Calvert crossbar with the placement of the LEDs, and the Visual Approach Slope Indicator with the angling of the LEDs. Quite elegant really.

I think they'll favour trying to push the existing camera peripherals into more gesture recognition instead.

I'm not betting against you

[namor7]

Again, weird gap in Wii game opinions. IGN's Peer Schneider is crazy about Zelda:

http://revolution.ign.com/articles/707/707152p1.html

[Stone]

That eurogamer article does seem remarkably negative - not so much at the controls, (although they're still very critical of the twitchy aiming) but more because the game is too much like regular Zelda. Considering the very small amount known about the game, it seems a bit early to start judging it on that, really. After all, Majora's mask had the classic dungeon structure, but it was still a very new, unique experience to play.

Don't forget that it's coming out on the GC too. If they made it too dependant on the Wii controller then all the Cubie owners would be dead angry

Exclusives are always going to be best at demonstrating how awesome the controller can be, because they don't have to shoehorn it in on top of an existing engine. Even if it's designed with it in mind it still has to be possible to remove it for the Cubie version...

Stone

[Atty]

That eurogamer article does seem remarkably negative - not so much at the controls, (although they're still very critical of the twitchy aiming) but more because the game is too much like regular Zelda. Considering the very small amount known about the game, it seems a bit early to start judging it on that, really. After all, Majora's mask had the classic dungeon structure, but it was still a very new, unique experience to play.

Don't forget that it's coming out on the GC too. If they made it too dependant on the Wii controller then all the Cubie owners would be dead angry

Exclusives are always going to be best at demonstrating how awesome the controller can be, because they don't have to shoehorn it in on top of an existing engine. Even if it's designed with it in mind it still has to be possible to remove it for the Cubie version...

Stone

True, dat.

My only real concern now is that Nintendo make sure that the D-pad buttons on the wossname are easily reachable - the D-pad was basically fucking useless on the Cubie, and while the Wii D-pad doesn't sound nearly so bad, there are far less buttons to go around with the Wiimote and it's probably going to get plenty of use in FPS' and the like for switching weapons. I'd rather not have to shift my grip every time to get at it.

Mind you, I have pretty long fingers. The complaints from PGC may just be that classic problem of people's hand sizes/shapes varying too much to make one universally suitable controller.

[xav]

Very feasible, I would have thought. After all, it's only a wireless eye-toy but instead of a stationary camera tracking a moving object you have a moving camera tracking a stationary object. That object doesn't have to be LEDs (which are just a cheap and convenient thing to track) - it could be something like the big rectangle of light that is the TV.

Hmmm. Would tracking a TV work reliably if it was in front of a window?
Seems like more sophisticated image processing is required if you want to do more than track something known and simple like a few bright dots, as you have to start to worry about visual recognition. Well within the scope of a cam attached to the console, but would you be able to get something cheap enough and low enough power to put in the controller this year?

The TV was just an example of a fairly obvious thing to track - in practice you could track anything although the processing power required is likely to increase if you want to track arbitrary items. The only issue of whether or not it's too much processing power for a controller is one of cost - both what they want to charge for it, and how much they're prepared to lose on each sale

Tracking IR LEDs is an ideal solution because with a suitable filter in front of the camera you only have to do something as simple as track the two brightest pixels in the image, rather than worrying about edge detection and more advanced image processing. Without seeing any patents Nintendo might have on the technology I don't know how hard it would be to avoid them: it could be that getting round them is as simple as using a "bar" of IR light rather than two points, or some similar alternative.

But yeah, I think it's more likely that we'll see "Wii-like" features implemented via Eye-toy or the XB360 camera. How long is it going to be before Sony try to tell us that their gesture recognition system is more advanced than Nintendo's, because whereas the Wii only works with four controllers, their system allows you to have up to six different players*


* Requires Eye-toy Party Kit**


** Eye-toy Party Kit consists of six differently coloured pairs of gloves

[D.J.Fudge]

Sony's Phil Harrison agrees with Microsoft's Peter Moore, saying the console will be a gamer's second choice... but after a PS3, rather than a 360.

And so the bickering continues. After Peter Moore previously commented on the PS3's price-point, saying that instead of a PS3, gamers could just buy an Xbox 360 and then a Wii for the same price, Sony's Phil Harrison has responded:

"I think Peter Moore is exactly right. I think Nintendo will be the second system consumers purchase after PlayStation 3. I haven't had a chance to check out the Wii myself, but Nintendo has a great history of innovation and has always done great things for gaming and long may they do so. But as it relates to our strategy they are very much in a different market."

"I know what Peter was getting at with his price point issue but he's not comparing apples to oranges. He's not even comparing the same kind of food products at all. It's clearly a case that PlayStation 3's price is justified by PlayStation 3's value. That's what consumers base their purchasing decisions on -- value."

Frankly, I'm amazed that we can [sell the PS3] so cheaply."

So if xbox360 owners buy a wii and PS3 owners buy a wii and Nintendo fans buy a wii and non-gamers buy a wii, the winner is?

[xav]

Still on the camera topic, I'm afraid, but this could be the post that puts it to rest once and for all (possibly)...

My gf bought a copy of "Nintendo Official Magazine" over the weekend, in which is a section about the Wii (though they're still calling it "Revolution", with the name change getting a "Stop Press"). The first article is a preview of Red Steel, which they saw on a visit to Ubisoft in Paris. The article has a few photos of people playing the game, including this one:



This appears to be a developer prototype of the controller, as it appears to be grey in colour, and lacks the "IR Window" over the end of the remote part. This means that you can see the part that would normally be covered by that window - a small circular object that appears to have a hole in the middle (it's a bit clearer in the original magazine):



Now it looks to me like it's a small CCD camera - the sort you find on those cheap "spy cam" devices.

It's also worth noting the following lines from the article:

Red Steel could only be played from a distance of around nine feet... Also of slight concern was that it was necessary to play Red Steel in a darkened room... [Nintendo] are aware of these teething troubles and will have them remedied well before the Revolution launch

My guess would be that the prototype controller uses an off-the-shelf B&W fixed-focus video camera, and that the final controller will have a different lens assembly to counter the distance issue. The fact that additional light sources cause problems can be put down to the lack of an IR filter in front of the camera, but also hints that they are indeed using a fairly simple algorithm rather than a fancy object tracking system.

[Perkunas]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4772109.stm

Nintendo shares see Wii benefits

Nintendo shares have soared after its new console stole the show at the E3 games expo in Los Angeles.

The Wii (pronounced "we") grabbed attention with its controller based on motion sensors rather than buttons.

The positive reaction, coupled with news that it will hit the shops before Christmas to compete with the Sony PlayStation 3, encouraged investors.

Nintendo shares climbed 6.2% to 19,710 yen having gone as high as 19,890 yen - its highest level since April 2002.

Looks like Nintendo are seeing the benefit of their E3 presentation already. Up, up and away!

I'd argue that Nintendo DS.lite might be even more important than Wii, seeing the strong/diverse line-up/support and how well it's doing in Japan (and in a lesser degree in the West). It's less than a risk than Wii, and will control the handheld market for years to come. Wii still has to prove itself.

Of course, if Wii turns out to be equally successfull as DS, shareholders will really 'jump for joy', and I will swear because I didn't buy any shares when they weren't doing that good. ;p