Mid Life Crisis....

Every now and then a Llamasoftie will say something interesting. Honestly! This is where we will keep these topics so that they don't get deleted.
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PVB
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Post by PVB »

Dvorak wrote:Talking about "The Grunting Ox" - can't find yakman's old blog with google. Anybody seen it anywhere?
I have some of it mirrored here:

http://www.medwaypvb.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/llamasoft.htm

I have lots more on my hard disk, but haven't got the time to put it all on my webby yet. Maybe during my summer hols. :)
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Post by arron »

teamonkey wrote:
arron wrote:I personally think that we are not too far from this point..
Maybe not the best time for us budding game programmers to try and enter The Industry then?
I think that it would be mindful to appreciate that like all things, the games industry is as impermanent as everything else is. The illusion that is spread by the people who rely on the industry is that it is forever, but by looking with care at what it is..eventually all things degrade and decay.

You may think that this would not be a good move, to work for an industry that is so changable, but in appreciating that change is inevitable one builds a career knowing that one will not be working in the same job until one's demise, and instead refreshes oneself knowing that one day it will rain, and one day it will be sunny, but never exactly the same. Each day different, with new challenges and fresh views on problems.

Once one has a handle on how things are, then one can then build a niche with the wisdom and contacts that one has. If one is prepared to be small and insignificant, then one cannot outgrow their needs and then require ever increasing amounts of money and power to maintain an ever burgeoning empire that will burn itself out ever more quickly. By seeking balance in everything that one does, one cannot suddenly awake to find that their achievements have suddenly collasped without reason.

When designing a game, then just design. When writing code, then just write code. When debugging, scream like a banshee at the screen because The Program doesn't work as it should.. ;)
Dickens wrote:They were the best of times; they were the worst of times.
Don't look at things in terms of best and worst. There is little difference between the two. In time, one will even see time to be an illusion.. ;)

If you sleep and awaken suddenly not knowing the passage of time, does one day feel different to any other? When it is dark where you are, then it is light for someone on the other side of the world. Therefore, days and nights are illusionary from the standpoint of time. The year now is not appreciable different from 2000 years forwards, or 2000 years back in time. Only the affairs of men and the ebb and flow of nature make time seem as so.

Without a watch, I eat when hungry, I sleep when tired, and write code when I am sitting in front of a computer. These are the only times at which I am certain.. :)
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Post by junkster »

arron wrote:The cost of development may be high (for our standards of bedroom coding) but the cost of advertising is much, much more and I think that publishers have been more than willing to pull projects to avoid spending the cost of advertising the product when completed..
This is nothing new. It has been like this for a long time. But pulling the plug on a multi-million dollar project can be very expensive, even if you view it as cutting future costs. Marketing money only gets poured into a game if it's seen as having big hit potential. You won't see twenty million dollars poured into advertising if the marketers don't believe the game will make it up and then some.

The bottom line is that large development budgets are still a major issue.
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Post by tryptamine »

I'm in a similar situation - i'd like to work in games, but i've been wondering if it's actually worth it given all the reasons mentioned above - crap pay, sleeping under desks, getting canned after the release so that someone else higher up the ladder can reap the rewards, the usual set of reasons that get posted to fatbabies, etc etc...

I'd also agree that we seem on the verge of a crash of 1984 proportions - hopefully Wind Waker will snap me out of a general malaise i've been feeling about most games recently. I could do without seeing EA/Acclaim/etc release "Rivendell Racer" or other such derivative licences for a while, thankyouverymuch.

Yet coding is probably about the only thing I can do that I can make a living out of (without the time and money investment of retraining - then again, what to retrain as?) and I don't think i'm really cut out for a regular job (I could endure it, but not necessarily enjoy it), so what to do...

I probably wouldn't be designing my own games for a couple of years if I did break in, so I have a slightly different tactic. Since most games are done in teams nowadays, and most people in teams seem to specialise in certain areas, i'm looking into either networking (e.g. TCP and UDP) or audio. I think they'll be in pretty big demand soon - most people i've talked to seem stuck on the graphics aspect of games, but I think that a Dolby Digital audio engine or scalable network connectivity would be equally interesting to work on while you get the experience to eventually make your own stuff (one way or another).

The idea is that if I like the games industry I would be better placed to get my ideas out there, but if I didn't like it then at least I come out with more transferrable skills and at least some insight into pro games development, which would probably help with my homebrew stuff. And if I didn't go for it i'd be sitting there for the rest of my life thinking "What if?"

I was quite pleasantly surprised by how much of my business/uni coding experience is transferrable - Java, XML and networking are all good, it seems.

Just my 2p's worth, it doesn't throw much light on any of the issues in this thread though.
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Post by moobaa »

Does anyone have firm numbers on what happens to the shelf price os a console game? How much to the publisher, how much to MS/Ninnie/Sony, etc?
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Post by arron »

I was thinking about it today, and I was convinced that if you have a machine with a reasonable 3D card and you already have some income coming in to keep yourself in accomodation and food, then you probably can probably develop near professional games that can be sold without breaking the bank.

I think that the highest cost of development is content - artwork, music, models, etc - so if you can minimise your reliance on these (use procedural graphics and sound, minimise the amount of professional work that is required, or learn to do it yourself). I happen to agree with a lot with what this person says here. Elite had lots of content..randomly generated according to an algorithmn, but it didn't feel like a small game did it?

http://www.talula.demon.co.uk/games.html

If you build your own tools, and use free software where you can, then your software costs are going to be fairly minimal. If you write them cross platform (PC Windows/Linux Mac etc) then you can increase your potential market share.

Selling your wares is probably a bit more tricky, but if you have a well maintained website and a method of payment, I'm sure that you could probably churn out good games that are not mere clones of others (Tetris et al). The problem that I see with most 'bedroom games' is that considering that they are almost free from cost and financial risk, and can have almost zero overheads..no-one seems to really push themselves out beyond writing clones of existing concepts.

I'm sure that lots of people are now going to prove me wrong here :)
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Post by aureole »

I'm also thinking about getting into games. I'm young enough to give it a go, but I'm not sure if it'll be for me. The rest of my industry is totally depressed, so I can give it a pop and then see. Are the wages and conditions really that bad?
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Post by teamonkey »

I don't think bedroom coders know do about marketing their games either. They tend to assume that all you need to do is stick it on a website and the money will come flooding in, which simply isn't the case, and leads to dissappointment.

Jeff's an old hand at this. I'm sure that the thing that brought in the most cash for GR++ was having reviews published in at least two mainstream magazines. I mean, look at what happened to the forum the day that the Unity issue of Edge started appearing on people's doormats. The PC mags don't regualrly offer shareware/bedroom games reviews, but perhaps they should. Just two or three select choices a month, 200 words each and a screenshot. After all, they're always moaning about the latest EA clone, they should be more than happy to show some original ideas. Oh, and if your game runs under Linux, send it to Linux Format. They're probably more likely to review it than Edge, PCF, PCG, GTM and all the others.

I wonder how much it costs to stick an advert in the back of these mags? Probably quite a lot, but if you had several games, or if you clubbed together with other authors to form a syndicate or franchise of some sort, you could do it. I'm sure that's the answer - spread the load.
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Post by donky »

I'm in a similar situation - i'd like to work in games, but i've been wondering if it's actually worth it given all the reasons mentioned above - crap pay, sleeping under desks, getting canned after the release so that someone else higher up the ladder can reap the rewards, the usual set of reasons that get posted to fatbabies, etc etc...
Don't believe everything you read on fatbabies. What I have seen is mostly scaremongering based on fact to some undiscernable degree. That which isn't spiced up internal rumour is probably distilled whine from some games forums - some truth in it, but only enough to make it sound believable. While its reassuring in some ways to read some FUD about a competitors product on fatbabies, the unreliability and tabloid sensationalistic http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/liness of it all kind of makes me sympathetic for the target.
arron wrote: ...I happen to agree with a lot with what this person says here...
http://www.talula.demon.co.uk/games.html
Most of this essay makes little sense except as a posture piece dedicated to creatively reshaping the realities of commercial game development in such a way as to justify the point that commercial game developers should open their code. The "Random advice for game hackers" section is the only part worth reading given its comparative lack of empty anti-closed-source rhetoric.

I suspect most original (non-clone) amateur projects that have resulted in substantial end results have one thing in common, one or more dedicated programmers who lead the project who have somehow managed to put in the hard graft. To maintain a long term interest in a project you are not being paid to work on involves having some control over it. Without that significant stake and even with it, its not easy for programmers to maintain that interest. As I think about it, I think it would be very educational to spend some time looking for successful amateur projects then determining what kept them active and progressing. My thoughts as they are, are merely supposition based on personal experience.

Whether a "successful" project was based on code released from a closed source project is most likely unrelated - all of the non-commercial (generally sourceforge) projects I have seen based on the Doom or Quake engine tend to be the Quake or Doom engine with extra graphical fluff code tacked onto it. The projects I consider successful tend to be based on custom code, not "opened" commercial code:

Cube - http://wouter.fov120.com/cube/
Egoboo - http://egoboo.sourceforge.net/

Getting a head start from existing source (open or not) can only be a plus to the chances of a projects success. I expect anything that speeds up the signs of progress and brings the end goal closer (either just in mind or actually) is good for that reason. This is why some programmers aim to have a working version at all times - test driven development is a good model to look at for this. I try to maintain a working version, but without the tests (too lazy).

Kent Beck has a great book and mailing list on test driven development:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/testdrivendevelopment/

I suspect successful development was equal parts graphical/audio dressing, game design, programming and the coordination of it all. I know many games that look and sound great but are about as fun as a piece of soggy toast once the novelty wears off (American McGees Alice, Thief) and games that don't look or sound special but are great fun (Nethack).

Well, I hope I haven't rambled too much :?
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Post by junkster »

arron wrote:The problem that I see with most 'bedroom games' is that considering that they are almost free from cost and financial risk, and can have almost zero overheads..no-one seems to really push themselves out beyond writing clones of existing concepts.
Spot on. There are a number of general problems with many bedroom games:

1. They're often so small and simple that they don't warrant payment.
2. They're often very retro, and a large percentage of game players don't get excited about remakes of Robotron and Tempest. This often happens on a higher level. For example, a lot of people are turned off by games that give you a set number of lives or involve playing the same level repeatedly, or use C64-sized sprites.
3. They're often twitchy arcade games, and in these arcade-poor days there are fewer people with that kind of hand-eye coordination. Even if you're good at some difficult 3D games, you still may not be able to play a Robotron remake.
4. There's a small set of concepts that get remade over and over. Besides Tetris, look at all the versions of Boulder Dash and Arkanoid and so on.
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Post by Fuseball »

Regarding the lack of vision in "bedroom games" - it is a shame that so few homebrew games have taken inspiration from the odd innovative titles that have appeared in recent years. Maybe nobody got to see stuff like Vib-Ribbon (for example) but I would have thought that such a great idea from the mind of a single developer would have been a spark for bedroom coders to run with... but it seems not.

Perhaps we have all been spoiled by Jeff's fertile imagination and his ability to turn those ideas into fully-rounded games. Those two skills together in one person are incredibly rare - a lot of very competent coders I know have little imagination, and those of us with ideas often lack the technical mindset to realise them.

Just maybe Unity will prove the inspiration for a number of aspiring games developers who currently see no other option than writing no-budget retro homebrew stuff or bland corporate titles. There is another way, it's just that Jeff is the only person I know of currently pursuing that path. If Unity proves both the creative and commercial success we dearly hope it will be, then maybe the future looks a little brighter for all of us - both players and developers.
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Post by arron »

Fuseball wrote:Regarding the lack of vision in "bedroom games" - it is a shame that so few homebrew games have taken inspiration from the odd innovative titles that have appeared in recent years. Maybe nobody got to see stuff like Vib-Ribbon (for example) but I would have thought that such a great idea from the mind of a single developer would have been a spark for bedroom coders to run with... but it seems not.
There are lots of programs through the decades of game development that have been inspirational efforts by one, or a few people - Sentinel, Virus, Elite and Mercenary to name a few that stick in my head. There is no innovation without risk, and unfortunately as the industry doesn't seem to act as a catalyst for new ideas at the moment - focused on moving to a continuous revenue model as they are, so the independents/bedroom coders are probably the best bet to take up this position. If you look at the examples that I've quoted, there is nothing stopping a reasonably competant coder from developing something of a similar quality to these programs with the tools that are freely available..

I know that certain firms have contracts with their employees that they can't work on game related products int their own time whilst they work for them, which is a bit of a shame as the people whose primary purpose in life is to write games are either being limited by contractual or even time constraints. Someone working a 18 hour day is hardly going to develop anything that is outside of the remit of the licenced product they are contracted to work on..
Perhaps we have all been spoiled by Jeff's fertile imagination and his ability to turn those ideas into fully-rounded games. Those two skills together in one person are incredibly rare - a lot of very competent coders I know have little imagination, and those of us with ideas often lack the technical mindset to realise them.
I think that the training needs to happen at both ends of the spectrum - not only from developing a clear design and breaking a product into achievable goals, then following it through with proper testing and marketing (sorry for slipping in that expletive there). The bedroom coder needs to evolve into a independent, flexible worker with a range of skills, and possibly able to use friends and family to help out with feedback and testing on projects, and perhaps helping out in business support.

From the games that are produced, there is plenty of effort in coding (as we've already seen) but no much effort applied in the other areas that are required. This is why I think that a lot of bedroom coder efforts are free versions of Tetris, Pacman etc..as they don't need the effort to be applied in these other areas.

I think that this is one of Yak's strengths - that he recognises that things have to be designed and balanced, tested to destruction and properly marketed. He's doing this (ultimately) as a business - a means of keeping himself in food and accomodation, rather than the mindset of merely writing code for the fun of it. Unfortunately when you have a serious mind to the Zen of Commercial Games Development, then coding is not going to be as much fun and more like work, which is probably why people don't apply themselves as much as they might.. ;)

Looking at myself clearly - all the things in the past that have have come together and worked have been for personal benefit. Not necessary financial, but have been something that moved me forward in some measurable way. Things that have not had any clear benefit from the outset have fallen by the wayside at one time or another. I think that probably says a lot about human nature.
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Post by hyphz »

I don't think all those "aspects of bedroom games" are necessarily bad. After all, Gridrunner++ meets at least two of them (it's retro and it's arcade-twitch) and was lauded for them both.

The "magazines ought to review homebrew games" idea is a good one, but the problem is that it's turtles all the way down - the magazines have to find out about the games from somewhere, and they have to pick and choose which ones to review without actually forming an opinion based on playing them (because that would be reviewing them). And it's difficult for homebrew software to break through that.

As for "learning to do graphics yourself" - well, that's a controversial viewpoint from the start, because the standard view is that art/graphics are an unlearnable "talent". Plus, of course, if you can do that kind of stuff then you can probably make more from being a graphic artist than you can from a homebrew game or even a commercial one, just because EVERYBODY wants/needs them these days.

I would be very interested to know, from anyone who does, how much art-as-in-drawing Yak has done to produce VLM3, and how much is the result of effects and code experimentation.
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Post by arron »

donky wrote:
arron wrote: ...I happen to agree with a lot with what this person says here...
http://www.talula.demon.co.uk/games.html
Most of this essay makes little sense except as a posture piece dedicated to creatively reshaping the realities of commercial game development in such a way as to justify the point that commercial game developers should open their code. The "Random advice for game hackers" section is the only part worth reading given its comparative lack of empty anti-closed-source rhetoric.
Closed source is his job :) From his viewpoint, Open Source in Commercial Games Developer houses that are established now is probably not going to make a difference to the current mindset in those places.

I think that the important point that I was trying to focus on was that the content (art/music) is more important for commercial games now than the code. If you look at the ratio of code to artistic content from 'classic' or 'retro' games - the machine did not lend themselves to megabytes of graphics and sound. The physical mechanics of a game is relatively easy to implement - I think that most of the effort is now spend on making something look nice and filling up those shiny disks you buy with data.

Unfortunately I don't see anyway of breaking this attitude..as games will become like hollywood movies that merely have more and more eyecandy and no substance, and as people get used to a predicable experience, then they probably won't stop buying it. There's a cycle here that will merely perpetuate itself. If you showed the average young games player the likes of Nethack or Robotron, most would probably never think that it is worth playing..
I expect anything that speeds up the signs of progress and brings the end goal closer (either just in mind or actually) is good for that reason. This is why some programmers aim to have a working version at all times - test driven development is a good model to look at for this. I try to maintain a working version, but without the tests (too lazy).
I do this myself. Before I finish up for the evening, everything that I'm work on has to compile and at least run. This has meant that I have been working on things until 4am when I'm due up at 7am, but at least then I can go to bed and not worry that I've left things in a 'unsafe' state.

I'm also someone who writes programs that generate their own datasets - cubes, random seed generated landscapes etc, rather than using external file. The reason for this is due to a lack of tools, but also that I have a test case at all times to test out the code that I am currently working on :)
I suspect successful development was equal parts graphical/audio dressing, game design, programming and the coordination of it all. I know many games that look and sound great but are about as fun as a piece of soggy toast once the novelty wears off (American McGees Alice, Thief) and games that don't look or sound special but are great fun (Nethack).


It makes me wonder sometimes how the industry can look at a product and release it knowing that it isn't working as a game, or has bugs. As the industry has become more professional, the industry culture has moved from developer to 'suit' in control. And in a lot of cases, the 'suit' is not either a developer or even a games player. I don't think that a generic suit with no hands on experience can develop games. They certainly can't do the job of a doctor, or a soldier, or a scientist, so how do these people wind up in positions of power dictating the 'market'?
Well, I hope I haven't rambled too much :?
Nope, but I do like the avatar ;) My girlf would definitely approve :)
hyphz wrote: As for "learning to do graphics yourself" - well, that's a controversial viewpoint from the start, because the standard view is that art/graphics are an unlearnable "talent". Plus, of course, if you can do that kind of stuff then you can probably make more from being a graphic artist than you can from a homebrew game or even a commercial one, just because EVERYBODY wants/needs them these days.
I think that learning graphics is not like learning facts from a book. I didn't know how to cook, but by careful experimentation, observation, focus, dedication and practice over time - I think that I can cook pretty well, and know enough about techniques that I can turn to cooking most things. How do people learn to grow things well? Learn to be a good lover? Practice!

I imagine that you can do the same with art. I'm not a natural artist, but over the years did a little here and there, and I think that I can probably get by. I'm not going to be the graphical genius that is Bog, but I think that for game purposes, I could probably at least manage placeholder graphics until a proper artist takes over..

http://erpart.deep-ice.com/arrons_artwork_page_1.htm

I know that people can earn more learning to draw than they can by learning to program. Unfortunately this doesn't help the bedroom coder - so one either uses less swishy graphics and focuses on gameplay, or gets the computer to generate it procedurally, so that he doesn't need to employ expensive artists. If adding an artist/musician to a project puts it outside of your finances to develop something, then you have to find another way. :)
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Post by tryptamine »

donky wrote:
I'm in a similar situation - i'd like to work in games, but i've been wondering if it's actually worth it given all the reasons mentioned above - crap pay, sleeping under desks, getting canned after the release so that someone else higher up the ladder can reap the rewards, the usual set of reasons that get posted to fatbabies, etc etc...
Don't believe everything you read on fatbabies. What I have seen is mostly scaremongering based on fact to some undiscernable degree.
Yeah, I agree you have to take a lot of stuff on there with a fairly large pinch of salt, i'm not sure where to go to get a more balanced viewpoint though. Obviously some people get slightly bitter if they get made redundant etc and end up posting (hopefully) exaggerated and one-sided claims.
aureole wrote:I'm also thinking about getting into games. I'm young enough to give it a go, but I'm not sure if it'll be for me. The rest of my industry is totally depressed, so I can give it a pop and then see. Are the wages and conditions really that bad?
You probably get similar working conditions in all software-related industries when it comes to crunch time and you're working flat-out to meet a deadline. Had it in my last job, will probably have it in my next one. It never got so bad that I was sleeping under my desk, but did to about 1-1.30am a few times, and in for 10 the next day - here's where everyone jumps in and says "Luxury!" etc...

Personally the cash/hard work aspect doesn't really bother me - as long as I have enough to pay the rent/buy gadgetry/etc then that's fine, but it is far more important that I enjoy what i'm doing - having said that, a healthy balance between work and free time would be nice. :)

As for the various shady deals/backstabbing/etc you hear about - who knows? I know that it ain't just the games industry that gets involved in dodgy financial jiggery-pokery. I'd guess it depends entirely on which company you join - hopefully just a case of a few bad apples and all that.
aaron wrote:I was thinking about it today, and I was convinced that if you have a machine with a reasonable 3D card and you already have some income coming in to keep yourself in accomodation and food, then you probably can probably develop near professional games that can be sold without breaking the bank.
I'd agree with that too - wonder how feasable it would be to do this, then take your game to various publishers in the hope they'll provide the funds to give it a final polish (ie packaging, art, music etc if it's needed) - if it's 90-95% complete, there's less chance of outside interference with the gameplay aspect, you'd always be free to turn round and say "No" if they demanded something unacceptable. How to do it without getting ripped off though...
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