Fuck this place

[fdave]

How is Grid Wars, which was free (and I only found out about it today), any worse a situation than say, Llamatron? Did you pay Williams a license fee?

Again, I'm just curious and definately not trying to stoke an already raging fire.

Also, one other point, Grid Wars 2 is pretty much the only clone which noticably didn't credit the original game.

Most of the other clones made reference that they were clones of the original Geometry Wars games, however Grid Wars 2 didn't.

And how come the spurious '2' on the end? And the blatent 'G' 'W' '2' initials.
The whole thing smacks of trying to replace, not trying to tribute. There's a very subtle difference between the two, which seems to have been trampled on in this case.

Didn't the examples in that thread involve people cloning games and then selling them without providing any kind of credit?

And wasn't Grid Wars 2 free, and didn't the guy mention Bizarre Creations a few times in the blurb?

Nope, just checked...

[Acronym]

There's probably more people here who'd rather see you stay than leave, Stu. I always thought you were one of the most interesting posters on here and one of the reasons I keep coming back myself.

What he said. Everyone, if they're totally honest, *knows* there are some posters who they look out for, even if they totally disagree with them some of the time; I'm not going to name names, but they probably know who they are anyway. One of 'em just left. It's a shame.

[Acronym]

It's ok guys I'm still here. Panic over.

If you threaten to leave, us in DAA are going to come find you and nail you to your bloody keyboard. There is no alternative, you understand...

[oddbob0]

And how come the spurious '2' on the end? And the blatent 'G' 'W' '2' initials.
The whole thing smacks of trying to replace, not trying to tribute. There's a very subtle difference between the two, which seems to have been trampled on in this case.

I can't be arsed with most of this crap going on in this thread, but I can at least sensibly answer this.

Read the thread in programming and its not a spurious 2 just put there to wind anyone up. Its the second incarnation of the game - funnily enough, the first one got pulled because it *was* too close to Geometry Wars for comfort by Mark and he wanted to take it off in his own direction.

Its all there, documented on this very board.

I can take and perfectly understand Yak and Snakeys point, but in the end - I think Mark felt a bit outvoted on the look and feel of the game - despite what initially started out as a GW clone - it became something very different play-wise.

In retrospect, it *is* a shame that the graphics never got changed, but I don't think thats something you can entirely lay the blame on Mark for. (yeah, I know he had final say etc... but internet pressures etc...).

Its a good game, that began as a clone and became so much more.

[Snakey]

I'd just like to add that I agree with what you're saying there oddbob, and didn't mean to imply that Mark did anything wrong (apart from perhaps not realising this might be a problem beforehand). All I'm saying is, if you DO create something that ends up being very similar to something else, and they get pissed off with it, you shouldn't be surprised, and certainly shouldn't be shouting 'T3H 3VIL' at anyone over it, as some people seem to be.

They asked him to stop it, he did, that should be the end of it.

[GeeZa]

I'd just like to add that I agree with what you're saying there oddbob, and didn't mean to imply that Mark did anything wrong (apart from perhaps not realising this might be a problem beforehand). All I'm saying is, if you DO create something that ends up being very similar to something else, and they get pissed off with it, you shouldn't be surprised, and certainly shouldn't be shouting 'T3H 3VIL' at anyone over it, as some people seem to be.

They asked him to stop it, he did, that should be the end of it.

Well I think that's true (agree with oddbob0 too) because the fuss has not been made by MarkInc but rather by others and as such the matter is over. I'm personally just sad to see an excellent, free, cross-platform game removed because of the threatening bullshit of IP infringement. I understand the position of both parties, but I have to say, for the gamer, the outcome is a negative one. As a holistic piece of game coding, whatever the influence, GridWars 2 was fucking brilliant. My issue is that I often find IP arguments rather weak (especially with video games and certain other aspects of software in general) and see it more as a vague instrument to stifle competitive threats, but that one is an old and long-running argument that's, erm, 'difficult'.

Still not totally sure what this issue has with Stu vacating the premises but never mind eh.

P.S. Acronym's on my Christmas list this year.

[Snakey]

As a holistic piece of game coding, whatever the influence, GridWars 2 was fucking brilliant.

Maybe so, but thats sort of the point. The majority of that "brilliance" was created by someone else, and then copied. I imagine you or anyone else here wouldn't be too happy about that, if you'd created the original.

P.S. Acronym's on my Christmas list this year.

He's right, too. You aint going nowhere, son.

[oddbob0]

Oh aye, reasons why my own game hit a bizarre (no pun intended) lull and limbo once I'd actually played the first GW!

Dealing with this sort of stuff on a daily basis for what we do at RR (different kettle of fish I know, but a lot of the principles apply I think) I was more disturbed when one of our board members went off, did a pretty much exact clone then went over to the BC board to promote it.

That sat incredibly uneasily with me for a couple of reasons.

1. We do try our best for the most part to respect the authors (most of us do anyway!) wishes wherever possible and this, to me at least, seemed like taking a shit in their letterbox.

2. See yours and Yaks comments

I think Bizarre could have, and should have handled their statement far better than they did. There was a lot of implications beyond the look and feel case in hand that I'm really not happy with, and its for that I'll call them rude names

Comments like...

The game was created as an entirely original product

Which y'know, is kinda debatable - I take "entirely original" to mean exactly that, and to me GW is an almagamation of a lot of other peoples great concepts and a more than ample amount of Bizarre's own into a great whole.

On a visual level, I can accept their case, on the level of possible confusion if the two were lined up side by side, I can accept their case, on the level of claiming they've created something "entirely" original? Nah, sorry - I can't get my head round that. No matter how much they verbally attempt to distance themselves from any of the 2 stick arena shooters in the past, there's still too many similarities to other games.

Its the disrespect to prior art that grates with me, not so much the removal of GridWars from Marks site (I nearly wrote "net" there but that wouldn't be true!).

But then, I'm speaking as someone who almost accidentally developed a clone game without even knowing it - so what the fuck do I know, eh?

Do I think its the BC developers at fault? Nah, they let an awful lot ride for a long time - there were many cases of more accurate clones cropping up on their boards before they started deleting posts and taking action. If it were the developers and general board monitors, they could have cracked down from the off, its not like the things weren't posted on their board on a daily basis or anything...

I don't think they targetted GridWars 2 specifically because it was the closest to their product, nor because it didn't credit Geometry Wars in a text file etc... they did it because its the most popular. Pretty much end of story. If you're going to send a message - you don't go after Mr Muppets Identikit Clone with 7 downloads, you go after the best known and most popular.

The whole situations a bit of a mess really and so many ways it could have been avoided on both sides of the table. But as I said in the other thread in the programming forum - Marks made his decision, Bizarre have made theirs. We don't have to like it, but there's shit all we can do about it.

We can debate it till the cows come home - t'aint gonna change a thing. I'm sad its come to this more than anything else.

Anyway, most of this isn't aimed at you, Snakey or anyone in particular really. Just getting shit off my chest a bit over things and rambling out things from my frazzled brain

[GeeZa]

As a holistic piece of game coding, whatever the influence, GridWars 2 was fucking brilliant.

Maybe so, but thats sort of the point. The majority of that "brilliance" was created by someone else, and then copied. I imagine you or anyone else here wouldn't be too happy about that, if you'd created the original.

Certainly I wouldn't be happy, no, especially if it made the XBLA variant look terribly poor value. The wider question (that has been pointed out) would be whether there is any legal basis for having a video game pulled based on similarity, visual or otherwise. I don't have the answer to that, but I think it's an interesting question given that video games have been borrowing, stealing and building on original breakthroughs for about thirty years.

[Snakey]

The difference, though, is that they don't usually borrow all of it

I say usually because I have to admit I think Saints Row is a bit shocking. I could kinda forgive the fact that its similar in a lot of ways to GTA3, because cities, cars, and people are going to look similar. I could kinda forgive the similarities in gameplay, because - well - lets face it - there wasn't actually much gameplay there to start with.

But jesus christ, they could at least have used a different font.

[Purple Grapefruit]

*please note there is no sarcasm in this post*
*also i know this thread appears to have moved on.But i couldn't think of *
*a more appropriate place to post this (well if approprate at all?).*

Y'know, it's more trouble than it's worth. I'm sure you'll all struggle on without me and my evil ways. See some of y'all around somewhere more civilised, and less mean-spirited and spiteful.

Even if the average Yakyaker posted a fuck it/them/you i'm leaving post,like that, i'd be underwhelmed, but the Rev? I would expect
a massive diatribe!

What's up Rev? If the trouble you are referring to is all the argueing/debating that you seem so often to be involved in on Yakyak, well i'm surprised.Forgive me if i'm wrong, but i had the feeling you enjoyed it in some way or to put it another way, got some kind of satisfaction from it.I don't know if that perception is peculiar to me or is a common one on Yakyak?

I did enjoy most of your posts that i have read, though sometimes for warped reasons.Even if i was in a fowl mood and that happened to coincide with me reading some of your more abusive posts i still thought that you had elevated fucktardery into an art form.Take that as an insult or a complement, but relative to the general fuckwittery noise produced on the net (myself included) i find you preferable.I dread to think who on Yakyak will fill the vacuum left by the departure of public enemy number 1.Bad guys always seem to be needed/invented to define what the good guys are, after all.

[Sickboy]

Can someone outline, in a clear, steady voice, what exactly pushed him into leaving? All I'm getting from this thread is a load of white noise about Grid Wars and C&D orders.

Is it because he defended Grid Wars - due to it being free - and then got leapt on for it?

[Marius]

Making a lot of noise about leaving the forum sounds to me like "ok, I'm gonna kill myself...tonight...at eight o'clock...in my room...taking sleeping pills. Oh, the door will be unlocked. Don't you try to stop me!".

Let's all give him a big hug, he'll apologize for running off in a tiff, and we'll all be friends again, eh?

[oddbob0]

Can someone outline, in a clear, steady voice, what exactly pushed him into leaving? All I'm getting from this thread is a load of white noise about Grid Wars and C&D orders.

Is it because he defended Grid Wars - due to it being free - and then got leapt on for it?

I'm assuming its to do with the Outrun thread amongst other things? *shrugs*

[Sargie]

He'll be sorely missed by me but at least I'll have this last response to a message to treasure for the rest of my days...

You running-dog lackey of the imperialist oppressor scum.

Now that's awesome!