Best tech for web-game

[Daniel]

What's the best client-side technology for implementing a game that runs inside the web browser today?

I want to draw some 2d graphics, maybe play a sound or two and communicate with the game server. I have looked briefly at FLASH but I don't think that is the way to go. Currently I am thinking of Java applets. Is there a better alternative? The reason I want the game to run in the browser is that I want people to be able to start playing instantly. So the technology must not come with a huge install package because that would defeat the whole purpose.

I think my target audience is probably running IE6 with default settings on Windows Me or XP Home. What options does that give me?

[jippie]

What's the best client-side technology for implementing a game that runs inside the web browser today?

I think my target audience is probably running IE6 with default settings on Windows Me or XP Home. What options does that give me?

ActiveX(he ducks), they use it were I work and they have a very quick turn around to get the games out. All C++.

I know with vista coming I think activex maybe be locked down a lot more.

On our site we have flash, java & activex.
Flash, just doesn't seem to me to make good games
Java seems to produce the least problems for our customers. We do get problems with users and either MS/Suns virtual machine, and we get less problem with MS. If my memory is good.
Activex, as I said above very quick to get a game out and you can do what every you want and a very good speed.

hope it helps.

jippie

[Daniel]

hope it helps.

Yes, thanks.

[teamonkey]

Flash for compatibility, Java for speed and a more functional game that only a small fraction of people can use. Flash is dead good at communicating with a server and it's more or less a web standard. If you want the MySpace/Youtube people to play on it, you'll want Flash.

[the2bears]

...Flash is dead good at communicating with a server ...

Braindead maybe

But for ubiquity on browsers and simple networking you really can't go wrong with Flash.

Bill

[~D4T45H4T~]

Flash, just doesn't seem to me to make good games

Not true, there are millions of flash games, and probably 90% of them are utter shite, doesn't mean yours has to be. Also, you can safely assume 95% of visitors will already have flashplayer.

Here are some examples of non-shite flash games:

http://www.teagames.com/games/tgmotocross/play.php
http://www.xgenstudios.com/play/motherload/
http://www.harveycartel.org/metanet/downloads.html (not in a browser but quite impressive)
http://www.globz.com/demo/buggy/
http://intihuatani.usc.edu/cloud/flowing/black.html

[failrate]

Yar, I've mucked about with Flash, and it has a lot going for it. It's more ubiquitous than Java browser applets these days. It *has* networking... yeah, that's about all I can say about that If you're feeling uber-nerdy, you can use Motion-Twin (mtasc.org), Ming (?), HAXE (http://haxe.org), or even OpenLaszlo to create SWF files. Those are about preferable to the alternative of paying for Macromedia Studio or... SwiSH (*shudder*). Of course, that's because I'm cheap
In general, a small flash game is a piece of piss to make. A complex flash game will be probably be difficult. I'm no Java guy, so I won't compare the two at an ease of use level.
Also, N used to have a browser version (essentially a leaked version IIRC), but it was deprecated as it didn't really represent the gameplay as well as the standalone inna third-party projector version.

[Daniel]

Java for speed and a more functional game that only a small fraction of people can use.

More functional is what I expected from Java, but the rest of your statement contradicts what I thought I knew. Please, elaborate? Are you saying Java is faster than Flash? Do you have any metrics that confirms this? And why can only a small fraction use Java? Is that because the JVM supplied with IE is not good enough?

[tufty]

Java for speed and a more functional game that only a small fraction of people can use.

More functional is what I expected from Java, but the rest of your statement contradicts what I thought I knew. Please, elaborate? Are you saying Java is faster than Flash? Do you have any metrics that confirms this? And why can only a small fraction use Java? Is that because the JVM supplied with IE is not good enough?

The JVM installed with windows always was (although I haven't touched things recently) complete and utter cock. There may not even be a JVM installed by default these days, I dunno. JVMs differ between platforms. Java really is "write once, debug everywhere".

What I can say is that Flash is already installed on 99% of machines, is pretty much "standard", is almost guaranteed to work on any machine that will hit your site, loads instantly rather than having to wait for JVM startup, isn't a massive memory hog, ummm - yeah. Go for Flash.

Simon

[teamonkey]

Are you saying Java is faster than Flash?

Yes, in almost every conceivable way.

Is that because the JVM supplied with IE is not good enough?

Yes, it's very old, slow and buggy. It's based on JSE 1.1 IIRC, whereas it Java's now at v1.5 and every point release has added major features and had big speed improvements. If you want to develop for everyone you have to target that platform, and it's not worth it to be honest.

[Daniel]

What I can say is that Flash is already installed on 99% of machines, is pretty much "standard", is almost guaranteed to work on any machine that will hit your site, loads instantly rather than having to wait for JVM startup, isn't a massive memory hog, ummm - yeah. Go for Flash.

Sounds good. But...
How about different versions of Flash? Is that an issue I have to think about? And what about that network support? Can I setup a TCP or UDP connection to any IP? Or must the game server and the web server be the same machine?

The game I have in mind is a multiplayer strategy game, so I absolutely need to communicate with a server. The server side will probably be a standalone Java or C++ application.

[bloid]

The JVM is no longer supplied with IE and windows, and when it was it was the old 1.1.7 version, so people still had to upgrade to get new stuff to run...

There is light on the horizon though, with Sun changing the licence for Java, it is looking like it will come pre-installed on most if not all Linux distros and they are working with the OEMs to get Java 6 pre-installed on windows...

And there is an effort being made to produce a "browser version" of the JVM which is under 5Mb and loads the extra stuff it needs if and when required... But I wouldn't hold my breath on that

[tufty]

And what about that network support? Can I setup a TCP or UDP connection to any IP? Or must the game server and the web server be the same machine?

These are questions that are best answered by doing some reading. http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flash/

You may find that flash is not the answer, but in that case Java is not the answer either, due to version mismatches and all the crap that goes with. In which case you may have to modify either your goals or your criteria for success.

Simon

[teamonkey]

I should probably point out that when I said that Flash was good at communicating with a server, I was talking about its XML web services ability, which is excellent. It works well with a J2EE server, I've heard (I haven't used that though).

[oNyx]

>Are you saying Java is faster than Flash?

ActionScript is pretty much the slowest language on the planet. Wheras java outperforms the cheap C++ compilers today (and its still getting faster). Its about 1:100 I would say.

Well, for many simple games you dont need many calculations per frame, but flash ramps up the system requirements quickly regardless. Even simple match 3 games require at least 1ghz, because the drawing is slow, too.

If there is some action involved the requirements go straight through the roof. Eg for something like a 640x480 snes contra you would need at least 2ghz and clever coding.

>I think my target audience is probably running IE6 with default settings on
>Windows Me or XP Home. What options does that give me?

Javascript. Well, dont bother with that. Its the shit (as in a pile of steaming shit).

If you target java 1.0/1.1 the compatiblitiy will be higher than 1.4, but the difference is small, because only old PCs have a 1.0/1.1 vm (since ms stopped shipping it, which is - as it turned out - the best thing ever, because more people use a up to date vm now).

Flash will give you a higher compatibility, because everyone and his dog have installed it. If you're fine with the system requirements, go for it. Otherwise take a look at java (and webstart).