What would signify the arrival of the next games gen 4 you?

[Bog]

Giles,

Hate to say it, mate, but how does this add to the discussion? We know you think "hyper-realism" (which is not a term that can be applied to any game engine currently in development anyway) is a Bad Thing. Personally, I think you're dead wrong.

When it comes to knowing that the Next Gen of Gaming is Here Today.... I guess I'd have to say that it's when game developers stick to their schedules. There's in a horrible half-way house now where they're dealing with the budgets and development levels that at least equal large Hollywood productions - but they're still trying to develop like games companies.

Deadline push-backs and the Great Valve Source Code Debacle are the road to perdition, not trying to push the boundaries of what's technically acheivable. Studios that want to produce near-photorealism in their games, or who want to produce "Epics" need to start treating the project differently. Whether it's taking the movie-studio route of "We will be done by mid-march 2004" and making sure that *what they've got* works by release, or simply shutting the snut up about release dates makes no never-mind. The current Harvey Dent entity of the CorperMarketWeenies saying "This $BUZZWORD^n will be out in Three Months!" while the coders and designers are ripping their hair out, with an invidiously-positioned set of team-leaders trying to interface between the two.... it doesn't work. The massive set of schedule shove-backs that typified the last 12 calendar months is just... it's unprofessional, and it's yet another kick in the teeth to an industry that still doesn't know what it is.

With the various next-gen engines... yes, they're exciting. Yes, they're pretty. Yes, they enable lots of people to create their own gaming ideas. That's brilliant, and all. What will let me know that the Next Generation is Here is when the other kind of realism comes in : What can we do, by when?

Anyway. That's my tuppen'eth.

[gravy]

With all the puff and hyperbole around games hardware right now, I was wondering what thing would make you say 'oh blimey, it's tomorrow today!'

For me it'll be when I play a game like Max Payne or Hitman but the street scenes are thronged with hundreds of pedestrians and the roads are packed with cars. Right now cities don't feel like cities. It's not important to the gameplay as things are (GTAIII is ace, Deus Ex was wonderful) but would present a level of realism that could make an absolute leap in terms of what becomes possible inside the game. Atmosphere, atmosphere, atmosphere.

What's yours? (I might take a crack at pullign some of these into a WotR piece as well - hope that's okay).

Cheers,
Rich

Good spot, crowds of people are the next thing.

Luckily "the next thing" in terms of production techniques are piss easy to spot for real time graphics.

All you have to do is look at the latest pre-rendered CGI and understand that's exactly what you'll have to do real time in the next 3 years. Over the last few years crowds have been the thing in compuuter animatied movie sequences.

It'll be games next and we've got some very clever people working on exactly this.

[MadHippo]

I'd like to see more innovative control systems. A 3D spacial version of the eye-toy for example, so it can see you in 3D... Not sure how it would be implemented, but it'd be great for fighting games.

[Jimaroid]

Nature - touching on what Koworld was saying about crowds.

Seing the background stuff come alive would impress the hell out of me. Animals flocking, trees swaying, water moving, weather changing...

All of these are possible in isolation, pre-rendering and cut-down real-time forms, but if it were in a complete game I'd think `Fuck, that's good.'

[koworld]

It'll be games next and we've got some very clever people working on exactly this.

[mode=indiana jones pinball adventure]

- We've got top men working on it.

- Who?

- Top. Men.

[/mode]



I'm excited now. Those renders you did of the rubble-strewn city that were in Edge looked lovely - fill that fucker with hordes of refugees and I'm in for a Xenon!

[bloid]

I'd like to see more innovative control systems. A 3D spacial version of the eye-toy for example, so it can see you in 3D... Not sure how it would be implemented, but it'd be great for fighting games.

I want to have a 3d mouse. Basically, you put your hand between 3 laser scanners, and they can detect its location in 3d space, and whether you are pointing, etc. Then you can move your hand around inside the virtual "box", and control whatever's going on "on screen"

Then, I want two of them...one for each hand... you can keep your analogue joysticks, my mouse thing would rule

[Kemper_Boyd]

I'd like to see more innovative control systems. A 3D spacial version of the eye-toy for example, so it can see you in 3D... Not sure how it would be implemented, but it'd be great for fighting games.

I want to have a 3d mouse. Basically, you put your hand between 3 laser scanners, and they can detect its location in 3d space, and whether you are pointing, etc. Then you can move your hand around inside the virtual "box", and control whatever's going on "on screen"

Then, I want two of them...one for each hand... you can keep your analogue joysticks, my mouse thing would rule

I suspect that they would not rule. In fact they'd suck. Such widgets have
been around in the VR community for a long time, and by and large they're
a lot better on paper than in practice. Same thing goes for headsets too.

You get all kinds of fiddly feedback, calibration, drift and latency
issues with complicated input/output devices. They lead to effects which
range from annoyance to making you feel sick.

I'd be quite surprise if the next generation, or even the generation after
does anything radical with input and output devices.

[lowey]

For me I'd rather see realistic people. People who behave like real people behave. Not like in GTA where you shoot and they scream "OH MY GOD, HE'S GOT A GUN!" and then run a few metres and carry on like nothing ever happened. I'd like to stand in the middle of a throbbing city packed with people who are all GOING SOMEWHERE to DO SOMETHING. People with real attitudes. People who don't walk round in circles or repeat themselves over and over. I'd like to pull a gun out in the middle of that crowd and fire randomly and watch them scatter like a flock of birds, clambering over each other to get away... cars swerving and smashing into each other.

That for me would be realistic. The graphics already blow me away, they don't need to be any more photo-realistic. It's crowd dynamics and people behaviours that I want to see. To quote Pratchett:

"The collective IQ of a crowd is inversely proportional to the number of people in it."

[koworld]

For me I'd rather see realistic people. People who behave like real people behave. Not like in GTA where you shoot and they scream "OH MY GOD, HE'S GOT A GUN!" and then run a few metres and carry on like nothing ever happened. I'd like to stand in the middle of a throbbing city packed with people who are all GOING SOMEWHERE to DO SOMETHING. People with real attitudes. People who don't walk round in circles or repeat themselves over and over. I'd like to pull a gun out in the middle of that crowd and fire randomly and watch them scatter like a flock of birds, clambering over each other to get away... cars swerving and smashing into each other.

That for me would be realistic. The graphics already blow me away, they don't need to be any more photo-realistic. It's crowd dynamics and people behaviours that I want to see. To quote Pratchett:

"The collective IQ of a crowd is inversely proportional to the number of people in it."

That's it exactly

[Bog]

Yeah, Crowd Dynamics are probably the Next Insanely Great Thing. Compare and Contrast: Something like the Battle of Endor, but after a while when you've been beating the shit out of a couple of hundred TIE fighters, half of them run away from you, and all the veterans get busy on your ass. Having the environment react to what you do, rather than just roll along on rails, as it were.

Re: 3D mice. CF: SpaceBall. It's a lovely idea, but there's a good reason the Mouse is the Controller of the Gh0ds: Stability. With joysticks, your hand's generally leaning against the stick (in most "normal" home conditions), and it's not very stable because of the weight of your arm hanging out of it, unsupported. Same with a spaceball: No matter how light it is, your hand will be shaking a little because of the mass of your own arm, let alone that of the controller. With a mouse, your hand (and, with my rig, my entire forearm) is resting on the desk, so it's all supported. No wiggle. Good show.

That said, I think with the Big Studios working on UberEngines, there's going to be a lot more room for Small Studios to work on more out-there prospects. Which is nice. I honestly believe that there is room for more abstract stuff in gaming, and that these new technologies are as enabling to the abstract or Just Plain Wierd game-creator as the hardware sprite or the blitter was Back In The Day.

[gilesgoat]

Good spot, crowds of people are the next thing.

Luckily "the next thing" in terms of production techniques are piss easy to spot for real time graphics.

All you have to do is look at the latest pre-rendered CGI and understand that's exactly what you'll have to do real time in the next 3 years. Over the last few years crowds have been the thing in compuuter animatied movie sequences.

It'll be games next and we've got some very clever people working on exactly this.

I understand your enthusiam and point of view as seen from a big company
side

I say this .. I hope I won't end up in doing fiancial SW myself ...

And no, I am not making libs and algos to give tools to someone else to
make games, at this point I'd open a pub, sell good stuff to get some
beer money and code home for the fun of it

I hope I won't have to arrive at this anyway

[Xstreme]

Tomorrow today.

Coming home from work.....booting up Elite. Meeting up with my real life mate but in our regular space station space bar.

Blasting off together in our custom ships. Causing havoc attacking innocent traders and nicking their cargo. Flogging it to buy more tech for our ships.

Meeting in RL the next day to discuss tactics and our next move.

Slowly becoming the most notorious couple of bastards in the Universe running a huge empire with people contacting us regularly to become a part of our crew......of course only the 'Elite' are allowed to enter.....

Some may argue that this has already been done but in my mind it still hasn't been done right! Maybe the next gen.....I can dream.....

[mightyzim]

Talking of GTA and crowd design, why not combine two or more games into one.
One day you will have online (cause everything will be) sim city designers, building for SIMs users, who are also in the same area as a GTA user doing missions, some of which cross over with Enter the Matrix users. The missions are controlled by other users playing some sort of strategy game...

I shall call this Unified Gaming:cause and effect.

[teamonkey]

For me it's what koworld said, but I also want a proper sense of your choice of actions having an effect. Very few games these days allow for that.

[Darkflame]

Any major change in either input or output as a fundimental method of game controll.

3D screens (like Sharps, but commonplace and better)

Or Nintendo:DS style new methods of input.

How about shouted at people in a game and they hear you?
"Get out my fucking way!!!" ect.
I agree about crowds, but id like them to react from user input too


Or maybe, in the distance future eXistenZ style machines that plug into our bodys?

Or Glass's with 3D LCD displays attached to GPS...seamlessly blending the real and the virtual into one hybred reality.
(i honestly think thats the future, not just of games, but of technology in general)

===

Graphics will relentlessly creap forward, i dont see that was any marker for the "next generation" as its really a continious thing,