EU referendum are you in or out

Inane baanter or words of wisdom - you decide...
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EU Are you IN or OUT

In
98
77%
Out
21
17%
Undecided (shake it all about)
8
6%
 
Total votes: 127

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gilesgoat
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by gilesgoat »

Darkflame wrote:http://www.develop-online.net/news/ukie-report-suggests-40-of-surveyed-games-businesses-considering-leaving-uk-over-brexit/0230386
No kidding, and no it wasn't me .. but someone was more or less seriously suggesting Yak to "Take all the sheep and move to Ireland" ...

Now anyway as "someone from EU" all this .. don't know .. the only real thing I can think is *SIGH*

OK "clearly something did not work the way people wanted" ..

BUT

You ask me "But do you understand what really people both sides wanted and/or what did not work out ?" ...

.. absolutely .. not .. "only confusion" ..

And now it's even more confusion .. and the future does NOT look good, looks very uncertain, does not give good feelings at all ..

Feels just "mess over mess" and "worse over worse" ..

[edit]

Also .. "thank you for making life easier" .. Tax rise for self-employed

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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by Darkflame »

oh, people certainly didnt know what they want. Some knew what they didn't want. Many didn't have a clue about the EU beyond the "hay look at this stupid thing they are making us do" stories in the daily mail.
Many people it feels only working out what the EU does for them after the vote.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by merman »

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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by (o)(o) »

Brexit minister says MPs have got to accept Theresa May's deal or crash out the EU...

What the fuck is this, a dictatorship??
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by Absolute_Zero »

(o)(o) wrote:Brexit minister says MPs have got to accept Theresa May's deal or crash out the EU...

What the fuck is this, a dictatorship??
One. More. Time... for the terminally obtuse.

http://www.yakyak.org/viewtopic.php?f=2 ... 3#p1665323
Absolute_Zero wrote:At considerable risk of repeating myself...

Most experts regard the Article 50 process as irrevocable once initiated. The Government believes likewise; I heard Truss say precisely that on Marr.

So what exactly would this vote be for?

Ayes: accept the deal, leave the EU to trade under the new arrangements
Noes: reject the deal, leave the EU to trade under default WTO rules

There is no stop-the-world option to remain once Article 50 is invoked. Having left, we could reapply under Article 49.

Since the Conservatives would never do that, Labour/LibDems would have to win a GE in order to rejoin... whilst admitting that none of the current opt-outs we currently enjoy would survive. Oh, and by the way, we'd likely have to adopt the Euro/EuroZone. Good luck with that!

I'd try to get used to it if I were thee. Once invoked, the chances to remain are slim, possibly non-existent.
Juncker recently expressed the hope that Britain would rejoin after Brexit... not that we'd somehow bail out of a process that has no provision for such.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by (o)(o) »

Absolute_Zero wrote:
(o)(o) wrote:Brexit minister says MPs have got to accept Theresa May's deal or crash out the EU...

What the fuck is this, a dictatorship??
One. More. Time... for the terminally obtuse.

http://www.yakyak.org/viewtopic.php?f=2 ... 3#p1665323
Absolute_Zero wrote:At considerable risk of repeating myself...

Most experts regard the Article 50 process as irrevocable once initiated. The Government believes likewise; I heard Truss say precisely that on Marr.

So what exactly would this vote be for?

Ayes: accept the deal, leave the EU to trade under the new arrangements
Noes: reject the deal, leave the EU to trade under default WTO rules

There is no stop-the-world option to remain once Article 50 is invoked. Having left, we could reapply under Article 49.

Since the Conservatives would never do that, Labour/LibDems would have to win a GE in order to rejoin... whilst admitting that none of the current opt-outs we currently enjoy would survive. Oh, and by the way, we'd likely have to adopt the Euro/EuroZone. Good luck with that!

I'd try to get used to it if I were thee. Once invoked, the chances to remain are slim, possibly non-existent.
Juncker recently expressed the hope that Britain would rejoin after Brexit... not that we'd somehow bail out of a process that has no provision for such.
Did you read the article? "Brexit secretary says final Commons vote on leaving EU will be choice between deal and ‘hard Brexit’, with no renegotiation" Why are you going off at a tangent?

I'm not talking about the triggering of the process this is about a Brexit minister dictating we MUST accept PM Theresa May's position in the negotiations.

Let me remind you she's unelected, has no mandate for a hard Brexit position.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by Absolute_Zero »

(o)(o) wrote:Did you read the article? "Brexit secretary says final Commons vote on leaving EU will be choice between deal and ‘hard Brexit’, with no renegotiation" Why are you going off at a tangent?

I'm not talking about the triggering of the process
Good, because once triggered we're effectively out.
this is about a Brexit minister dictating we MUST accept PM Theresa May's position in the negotiations.
He's saying you don't get a choice... because unless she decides to open up the entire negotiation to Parliament, you don't get a choice. She wont, you don't. Technically, treaties and related negotiations come under the purview of Government; Parliament's role is restricted to ratification... unless the Government allows it, which it wont.
Let me remind you she's unelected, has no mandate for a hard Brexit position.
The PM is the PM... I wouldn't be wishing for an election at this time.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by Absolute_Zero »

Just to remind... the only real-world option is the Lords amendment that would force the Government to give MPs a “meaningful vote” on the final Brexit deal before Britain’s withdrawal from the EU. Nothing related to the negotiations themselves.
Last edited by Absolute_Zero on Sun Mar 12, 2017 6:10 pm 0, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by zip accident »

Absolute_Zero wrote:The PM is the PM... I wouldn't be wishing for an election at this time.
If it was the price of dropping brexit, it would be cheap at 1/4 of the Labour seats (mind you, I'm not Labour)
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by KlaxonCow »

Absolute_Zero wrote:Parliament's role is restricted to ratification
Which would involve voting on it.

Parliament provides its formal collective consent by majority vote. Having a meaningful vote on the terms of the negotiation would, indeed, be ratifying the treaty. That's exactly what that would be.

Now, if your point is that it's simply not pragmatic to negotiate terms, have a vote and then re-negotiate terms (potentially numerous times) - remembering that the EU also has to collectively ratify the new treaty too - all within the 2 year period devoted to doing so, after which all the EU treaties automatically expire anyway and we're just auto-dumped into a WTO "hard Brexit" by default, then I can see the semblance of a point here.

In principle, without doubt, Parliament should vote on the terms and, thus, be ratifying the treaty, as only Parliament - being sovereign - has the authority to do so.

I mean, even if you're all for Brexit, then you should seriously consider that if the sovereign power does not formally approve of it, then the very legality of the Brexit terms will be open to question forever more.

Parliamentary vote solidifies things. As, indeed, though May was frightened to take the Brexit Bill to a vote in Parliament, fearing that it would be blocked or delayed, and had to be forced by the courts to do so. Well, the Commons backed it. It gave its formal approval. There is now no question whatsoever that Brexit will happen. The Commons has priority and it said "yes".

If you're for Brexit then the courts disallowing Theresa May to bring about Brexit by executive diktat is a good thing. If she'd have done that then its legality would have been dubious and open to debate. She should actually thank the private citizens who forced this into the courts before Article 50 was invoked, because now there's sod all question that the Commons has indeed given her the mandate to do so.

And, to be frank, she should grant the Lords their amendment. We should just unilaterally guarantee the rights of EU citizens in this country, regardless of what the EU does in return. One, because we should surely morally aspire not to be arseholes about this. Two, the EU is the one wanting freedom of movement in the first place - and it has even spoken seriously about allowing British citizens to ask to retain their EU rights regardless of any negotiated position - so, basically, it's not going to be the one to pull up the drawbridge here. That's not going to happen.

And though I understand her intense desperation here - because the British people really have dumped us in the shit for voting Leave - she's just doing it wrong. If you open the negotiations with such threats, then she's going to get a shit deal.

There's strategy in her openly uttering "no deal is better than a bad deal" beforehand, to threaten walking away, even if it's not true. Now that's the sort of shit that one does in negotiations. But threatening the rights of EU citizens in this country? No, she's doing it wrong. That's really, really, really poor strategy. Atrociously bad.

I don't just mean morally - though there is that, of course - but it's pragmatically awful. It just won't work out well. It's terrible strategy that'll likely backfire on her arse.

Look, grant the Lords their amendment. We should be guaranteeing the rights of EU citizens. That's perfectly right and sensible, and really won't injure our negotiating hand at all (might even very well greatly improve it).

If she would concede that, then she would have Commons and Lords approval for triggering Brexit. With no questions of its legality for her to do so, as Parliament would have collectively said "yes".

She's being unnecessarily dictatorial. There's no point in it. The Commons said "yes" and the Lords are only asking her to fix the fucked up bit about threatening EU citizens in this country. So, for fuck's sake, woman, just do that. It's right and proper, and it really won't do a single sodding negative thing to affect our negotiating position.

She was afraid of Parliamentary approval. But she's actually got it from them. Because they're not going to defy the Will of the People as expressed in the referendum.

She's being an idiot. There really is no need for this posturing. It serves no useful purpose. And, with Parliamentary approval, it's all legally watertight. If she'd gone ahead without that, then its legality would have been questioned forever.

The courts forced her to get Parliamentary approval - imagine if the court cases had been triggered after Article 50 and negotiations, which she'd stubbornly done without Parliament's backing, instead of beforehand, and they declared her actions to be illegal after-the-fact? Because, fucking hell, would that have been "cat amongst the pigeons" for the next century or so.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by KlaxonCow »

It's really quite funny.

Because for all the "remoaner" insults, it's the Brexiteers who're continuing to act like they lost.

Like they're still the underdogs. With their leaders running off into hiding, and still playing the "apologetics" game whenever they talk. Running scared from a Parliamentary vote... that actually solidly backed their position, taking all legal question away.

I was and still am 100% against Brexit. I think it's stupidity, based on misinformation and casual racism. I'm not going to change that opinion.

But, for fuck's sake, you won. The referendum demanded Brexit and, as I've expressed before, I consider the democratic process itself more important than any of its individual decisions. This is the wrong decision, in my opinion, but we're going to carry it out.

That's no longer in question. For most of us, that stopped being a question on the morning after the referendum when the results were announced.

Again, the Commons approved the Brexit Bill. The Lords are only asking for a sensible amendment, which she should really grant them and then we can get on with this disaster in the making.

You won. Get over it and get used to it. Because now you've got to sensibly sort this shit out, that you've brought down on all our heads.

Sorry, but it needs to be said, as Brexiteers need to stop fighting the war that was already won to focus on not making a total shit sandwich of what's coming next. Please. Thank you.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by PFVA »

I looked at the Pound Xchge Rate yesterday. It's looks quite inviting... from a €uro or Dollar point of view. :)
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by Absolute_Zero »

@klaxon

The citizenship thing seems like a manufactured brouhaha - have I once read criticism on YY of the EU's refusal to discuss anything related to the status of UK citizens in Europe before Article 50 is invoked? The concern seems conveniently asymmetric. I'm not bothered much either way... a card that's unlikely to be played.

As for Parliamentary approval for invoking #50... I'll just remind that closet Brexiteer, Jeremy Corbyn, called for the immediate triggering of Article 50 the day after the referendum. After the fact, I doubt the courts would've been willing to touch it with a bargepole.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by KlaxonCow »

Absolute_Zero wrote:have I once read criticism on YY of the EU's refusal to discuss anything related to the status of UK citizens in Europe before Article 50 is invoked? The concern seems conveniently asymmetric.
Well, that's because it's not true.

Here's Guy Verhofstadt - the European Parliament's chief negotiator - talking about how he's been working to try to secure the ability of British citizens to individually retain their EU citizenship on request:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 21896.html

(With the actual audio, in English, so you can directly hear it yourself.)

Article 50 has not been invoked yet, and here's a top bod in the EU exactly talking about unilaterally securing the rights of British citizens within the EU, if they want. Completely independently of any further negotiating positions taken in future talks.

The characterisation of this as some kind of "refusal" is just biased bollocks, frankly.

(And I have mentioned this previously, so it has been on the YY forums before. If you chose to ignore that then that's your problem, not mine.)
Absolute_Zero wrote:I'll just remind that closet Brexiteer, Jeremy Corbyn, called for the immediate triggering of Article 50 the day after the referendum.
And that demonstrates what exactly? That Corbyn was a closet Brexiteer all along?

So how's that a counterargument to my criticisms of Brexiteers, if you're confessing that Corbyn was always really a closet Brexiteer?
Absolute_Zero wrote:After the fact, I doubt the courts would've been willing to touch it with a bargepole.
The courts don't act unilaterally.

It was private citizens taking the government to court that forced them to rule on May trying to trigger Article 50 without Parliamentary consent.

The courts might not want to act, but they are legally obliged to do so, when a valid case is brought before them. And there definitely would be people trying to bring cases.

They wouldn't be allowed to just ignore it. The law does not give them such discretion.

And, again, it would simply be unwise to do so anyway. If citizens brought cases against the government and the courts said "nah, can't be bothered" then this doesn't settle the matter at all. More cases will be brought to other courts. Protests will be had. The legality will never be resolved. Accusations of corruption and the independence of the courts - the courts ignoring the execution of law for the government's sake? - would be raised. It would never die and Brexit would be forever questioned as very possibly having been illegally implemented.

On the other hand, the courts did rule on the Brexit Bill and insisted Parliament needed to give approval. The Commons gave approval. It has priority, so Brexit will happen (all the Lords can do is delay, they can't stop - because in the event of a tie break, the Commons auto-wins).

It's fully and unquestionably legally resolved. Triggering Article 50 is entirely legal. The matter is put to rest.

Understand this point. You should want the courts to rule on these matters, as it fully resolved the legality. Theresa May does now have full authority to invoke Article 50. It's beyond question.

She should never have run from it in the first place. This has absolutely 100% solidified her position, deemed it fully legal and, thus, supports her entirely.

It's the "underdogs" acting like they're still on the losing side again. But this is simply not true and it needs to stop, as we have far more pressing matters to be worried about now.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by Absolute_Zero »

KlaxonCow wrote:
Absolute_Zero wrote:have I once read criticism on YY of the EU's refusal to discuss anything related to the status of UK citizens in Europe before Article 50 is invoked? The concern seems conveniently asymmetric.
Well, that's because it's not true.

Here's Guy Verhofstadt - the European Parliament's chief negotiator - talking about how he's been working to try to secure the ability of British citizens to individually retain their EU citizenship on request:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 21896.html

Article 50 has not been invoked yet, and here's a top bod in the EU exactly talking about unilaterally securing the rights of British citizens within the EU, if they want. Completely independently of any further negotiating positions taken in future talks.

The characterisation of this as some kind of "refusal" is just biased bollocks, frankly.

(And I have mentioned this previously, so it has been on the YY forums before. If you chose to ignore that then that's your problem, not mine.)
Hence the question mark. I have a good memory but in all honesty TL;DR. My recollection was that Germany rebuffed discussion of the subject. So I looked again and found this gem from January.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... ens-rights
Guardian wrote:Germany has denied it rebuffed an attempt by Theresa May to seal an early deal on citizens’ rights post-Brexit, and reiterated that there was “complete unanimity” among the EU’s 27 member states that the subject could only be discussed once Britain had triggered article 50.
What does that mean then? We didn't say it couldn't be discussed, but it can't be discussed?
Absolute_Zero wrote:I'll just remind that closet Brexiteer, Jeremy Corbyn, called for the immediate triggering of Article 50 the day after the referendum.
And that demonstrates what exactly? That Corbyn was a closet Brexiteer all along?

So how's that a counterargument to my criticisms of Brexiteers, if you're confessing that Corbyn was always really a closet Brexiteer?
It's a side issue for the double-think Remainer Corbynistas. My point is simply that had the leader of her maj's official opposition and the prime minister been as one that #50 should go ahead immediately... I seriously doubt that the case would've been brought, nor that the courts would be inclined to intervene after the fact.
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