EU referendum are you in or out

[(o)(o)]

Can we get a poll on here?

Not wishing to be negative, but I reckon we're fucked either way.

[zip accident]

We have to be in.

[gravy]

I've seen a load of polls on forums and they're all pretty much unequivocally stay in.

That said just about every poll on the same forums before the general election were FUCK OFF DAVE.

And Dave didn't even slightly fuck off.

[Cloudane]

I've seen a load of polls on forums and they're all pretty much unequivocally stay in.

That said just about every poll on the same forums before the general election were FUCK OFF DAVE.

And Dave didn't even slightly fuck off.

This is very true. The internet is a very different place to the real world, and polls held there definitely do not reflect real world opinion. Speaking of the forum there's also the echo chamber effect - I've noticed those who do have differing views here often get a lot of personal attacks, and as there's only really pogo and maybe one or two others who don't give a shit and will state their views regardless I think this causes a bit of a bias in who can be bothered to participate.

Definitely "in" here though for the same reasons I was glad Scotland stayed with us. Together is better. We share our problems and overcome them as one, no matter how diverse we all are (rather, using that diversity as a strength), instead of devolving into bickering and eventually back into wars. As I said in the Trump thread, the terrorist tactic of "divide and conquer" is working far better than it should - but sometimes it's hard to actually trace it back to terrorism.. we're doing it of our own accord

[VNVObit]

Another definitely in.
haven't seen a coherent argument for Brexit with an actual action plan (or something vaguely deliverable) for the exit.

[phattslagg]

I reckon we're fucked either way.

Which is why I voted undecided.

I keep hearing justifications both for staying in Europe and getting out expressed in national terms. IN brief, many of the reasons being put forwards for both positions are in terms of why it's 'good for Britain'. Occasionally, some people say being in Europe is 'good for Europe' as if this is a more left wing thing to say.

Both these positions concede too much to the ruling order. The nation state is withdrawing more and more from being of assistance to working people. 'Good for Britain' now means more than ever, good British capitalism....other than that it's pretty difficult to disentangle 'British capitalism' from the international capitalism that happens to trade in and around the UK.

So the considerations being made by the ruling orders of our time are about what suits the major capitalist powers of the moment - most of which are above the nation state, they are global enterprises.

The problem for the left is that neither position (in or out) is really much good for us because the left is not in power or anywhere near it. We are at best arguing about which of the two positions is likely to screw working people the less and/or which of the two might enable the left to do well.

I am deeply suspicious and/or cautious of any left position that argues from the point of view of 'good for Britain'. This just plays into ideas that 'we' should be competing with everyone else. It may sound terribly abstract, but a truly left position is about, is it good for the world?! There are no 'British' solutions to climate change, war, migration or poverty.

I say, 'abstract' but when it comes to the production and circulation of wealth, we are now more global than ever before. There has never been a time when working people are in fact more employed at the point of production by global capital. The circulation of products is global and the price of money itself is global. With this in mind, some of the things that politicians say about 'Britain' are either pure demagogic crap and/or lies. Then, when politicians talk of 'co-operation' in Europe, that's really no better, because it's about creating a European bloc competing with the rest of the world, and/or putting up barriers to the rest of the world wanting to migrate.

I doubt whether I'll vote in the referendum. I hope that some time over the next few years, trade unionists working for international companies will emerge more and more out of the shadows co-operating with each other across national borders, across power bloc borders...

Finally: an observation of who we are as people. Over the last 100 years, my family has been international, living in the US, South Africa and all over Europe and further east in to what is now Ukraine or Russia. This kind of international family-living applies to millions of people. We are not defined by 'nation'. So when I hear 'good for Britain' against other parts of the world, or against peoples in other parts of the world, this feels like an attack on some part of me. Perhaps the left can help focus on this kind of personal internationalism too.

[Ratsoap]

In. I'm convinced it's going to be out though, and that Boris will be next PM. And that Trump will win.

[rowan]

Definite 'in' for me.

I am a bit concerned how it may go though, a fair number of people I've met seem eager to leave just to see what the difference turns out to be.
I've got this feeling that there will be a chunk of negative people who wouldn't usually bother to vote that'll sum up the effort just to say "screw you" to someone on this one.

[Ollie]

The depressing thing is that whichever way it goes, the result will almost certainly not be decided on the basis of facts and rational argument, but by which side manages to scare the most people with the largely imaginary negative consequences of voting the other way.

[PFVA]

I obviously don't have the right to vote one that as i'm not in the UK.

But if i can make a comment, I don't like the idea of the UK leaving the EU. It's much better to have 3 big economic powers within the EU than just 2. It's a question of balance. The UK leaving leaves only France and Germany and we will run a even greater risk of having to do everything according to the German government wishes which i don't think is good for the Union as whole.

[Barney]

Speaking of the forum there's also the echo chamber effect - I've noticed those who do have differing views here often get a lot of personal attacks, and as there's only really pogo and maybe one or two others who don't give a shit and will state their views regardless I think this causes a bit of a bias in who can be bothered to participate.

That's the opposite of my experience of the forums - though I'm not terribly active, nor am I terribly well informed - but in cases such as the politics thread Pogo is pretty much universally held up to ridicule, relentlessly (but he's just as relentless in pushing his views), but elsewhere it's just sunshine and puppies for all including Pogo. I think he's interesting and like-able, even if I think he's a twat

I love this place for that.

Oh, and "In" btw - can't imagine that we'd be very well off outside of the EU.

[Firefox]

Don't we need all the Polish people to make the sandwiches in the sandwich factories, because our unemployed people aren't up to it?

[Cloudane]

I am a bit concerned how it may go though, a fair number of people I've met seem eager to leave just to see what the difference turns out to be.

I think that's that same point that was made about people voting Trump - can't remember if it was here or Slashdot I read it as I was reading a similar thing there. Basically that after so much of "same old, business as usual" and all the things people are worrying about, many just want to try anything different, no matter how batshit. It's the "let's just experiment and see what happens" mentality. I prefer to view politics as a factual/science thing than an art like chucking ingredients into a bowl and seeing what comes out, but it's complex enough that it can be treated either way.

That's the opposite of my experience of the forums - though I'm not terribly active, nor am I terribly well informed - but in cases such as the politics thread Pogo is pretty much universally held up to ridicule, relentlessly (but he's just as relentless in pushing his views), but elsewhere it's just sunshine and puppies for all including Pogo. I think he's interesting and like-able, even if I think he's a twat

I love this place for that.

Oh, and "In" btw - can't imagine that we'd be very well off outside of the EU.

Quite glad you think so really. I quite often gravitate towards subjects that can be controversial so often see the infighting but that's not to say it means everyone hates each other. And for the record whilst not wanting to single anyone out Pogo was just an easy example of someone who gets an amount of 'opposition' sometimes that some could find overwhelming, not to choose a "right" or "wrong" (I'd say we tend to disagree politically but agree in the Great OS Wars) but in fairness of having different views discussed. Certainly not a bad guy by any means, I can't think of anyone here who is, we just have our sometimes heated disagreements.

[Portland]

In for me, as I disagree with the wannabe KKK that spring up in my neck of the woods, plus I like the fact that I can buy stuff on the cheap from Europe with minimal hassles when rate is in favour and that the handful of Brit manufacturers left (specialist kit in the main) can continue to flog stuff to Europe also with minimal hassles.

I do have a lingering concern that we've got an influx of migrants that's stressing the infrastructure in some areas, but that tends to be down to shit forward planning from the councils in question.

Would cheerfully exchange any number of the Breeders round here for grafting peeps from Lodz or the like.

[Darkflame]

When people say "x is stealing our jobs" I am always a bit baffled by the concept of 'our jobs' to start with. I feel at times like a alien when looking at some discussions. The idea that due to some random quirk of birth location you have a moral right to have exclusive rights to some activities and you get offended when other people dare take them....what?