EU referendum are you in or out

[WiteWulf]

It’s complicated, but basically it boils down to what was at the heart of the “Troubles” (euphemism for civil war) and some of them wanting to stay part of the UK and some wanting independence. I’m sure someone can explain it much better than me (VNVobit or GoodbyeGirl, for starters).

[(o)(o)]

What's with Ireland trying to pretend Brexit isn't happening? I thought they'd be all for it as the EU regulations get in the way of being a tax haven.

The Republic of Ireland is part of the EU and has no intention of leaving.

In Northern Ireland (NI) the DUP (Democratic Unionist Party - who are anti-EU) and opposing Sinn Féin ended hostility under certain conditions, "The Good Friday Agreement".

The problem is that Brexit unavoidably creates a new EU border, and if you had a patrolled border it would almost certainly start another war. Nobody wants a policed border.

BUT there's no easy way to stop movement of goods and peoples between North and South without a border.. hence the 'pretend NI is still in the EU idea'

The Tories tried to suggest NI should alliances with the EU specifically those regulations that could create the need for the border, but this then means NI is being treated differently to the rest of the UK - goes against the principles of the Good Friday agreement, creates friction on all sides, and the DUP who Tories are reliant on to keep the government in a majority don't like it either as they want equivalence with Britain.

To alleviate this mess, Tory Brexit minister is now saying what he meant was these alliances would apply across ALL of Britain, but that just doesn't stack up.

There is no simple solution to this.. except basically staying in the EU.

It is a problem that should have been addressed before the referendum.

[(o)(o)]

This is sort of the memories people have of the border ..

[gilesgoat]

This is sort of the memories people have of the border ..

Dude .. if you'd live in Italy and you replace those with "Carabinieri" and "Guardia di Finanza" ( two specialized army corps, let's not forget they are both army corps ) that's just like border always been and still are now.

"Are" not because of EU but cause illegal immigration control, Carabinieri and such made a comeback, armed Carabinieri are a common sight in Italy as they are always armed.

It never started any war because of this, the only pain in the arse was any time you passed the border you had to spend 20 mins at check in/out, the other stuff of course was taxation of all merchandise/people for some stuff you paid it through the nose.

Now if you want a MUCH WORSE border .. try to enter USA ..

Question for NI could be "are you Irish or are you British or are you both" ??

[(o)(o)]

Question for NI could be "are you Irish or are you British or are you both" ??

Second to creating a border, that is the other way to restart the war.

Ireland is a tinderbox, here's what to expect if one doesn't approach this subject gently gently ..

[Rhythm]

Yeah, but at least it's proper *British* bombing, sportsmanlike, with warnings and everything, what what.

This morning's news is expected but alarming. Those 58 impact reports that David Davis claimed to have done but then said people couldn't see? Turns out.... they don't exist. He never did them.

Article 50 was triggered on the basis of no impact analysis work whatsoever.

This is beyond disgraceful. It's now easy to see why he was fighting to lose his job last week ("I'll quit if you don't let my colleague wank at work").

[gilesgoat]

Yeah, but at least it's proper *British* bombing, sportsmanlike, with warnings and everything, what what.

This morning's news is expected but alarming. Those 58 impact reports that David Davis claimed to have done but then said people couldn't see? Turns out.... they don't exist. He never did them.

Article 50 was triggered on the basis of no impact analysis work whatsoever.

This is beyond disgraceful. It's now easy to see why he was fighting to lose his job last week ("I'll quit if you don't let my colleague wank at work").

Well .. David Cameron let the people have the referendum assuming it would have NEVER passed, the idea that "leaving EU" would have won was on nobody's mind ...

And now it's all fucked up and the thing is is quite clear that there's been many lies and the people that wanted to leave EU voted so not even precisely because they wanted to leave EU but "for other reasons".

Overall seeing all this as "european" is sad because it could have gone differently, there should have been maybe still lot more talking before to get to that, I think even EU itself "should have talked more and found some solutions" BEFORE UK even said about "let's do a referendum", I mean maybe some other solutions could have been found.

Thing is, you know, "the sins of the fathers will fall on the children" and stuff like that could be one of those "examples" that will remain in history about "how NOT to do things" that at least maybe future generation could look back and hope they won't repeat the same mistakes.

Now I don't say "you don't have the right to do that" but "whatever you do there are always consequences", "think about them".

Said that, it still all remains to be seen "if things are ever going to be better" and in what way still I DO NOT UNDERSTAND 100% what really UK people wanted or hoped for, you get out of EU, of course you get borders and taxes and duties and NOT free market again, otherwise "what's the point of leaving then ?".

The thing is "you can't be this and that and nor this nor that" no ?

[(o)(o)]

I DO NOT UNDERSTAND 100% what really UK people wanted or hoped for, you get out of EU, of course you get borders and taxes and duties and NOT free market again, otherwise "what's the point of leaving then ?"

Just enough sheeple were herded into the "Leave" pen their nationalist tendancies stirred up by politicians and the media and UKIP. Most leave voters I've spoken to don't have a fucking clue what they want just some gumpf about 'getting our country back' and/or 'too many polish everywhere when I went to a shop'. Find me any rational argumens if you can.. I'm ANTI EU core anti-democratic principles, but "brussels rules makes all our deicions" is more exaggerated bollock and lies. Then there is the Euro-empire, euro state with euro army.. but ask leave voters most are just obviously a bit nationalist racist or thick maybe and whipped into frenzy by UK media and steered into voting for it.. "£350m pw for NHS" etc

Aside from the whole Russia destabalizing the west thing, which is definitely a phenomena... the real people behind brexit seem not to be voters but powerful elites and look who they are. Usually extremely wealthy, who would be affected by looming threats such as the EU anti-avoidance directives, which member states have to adhere to by 2019, coincidentally as we are set to leave the EU...

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/b ... rective_en

Same people with tht mindset of striping the people of their rights.. 'human rights' and such, as it inconveniences the exploitation of Britons to further their goals... notice how the Conservatives sought Henry VIII rules to rewrite alll the EU laws to their own agenda.. some of the leading leave views were exposed a Tory treatise Britannia Unchained check the reviews...

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Britannia-Unch ... 1137032235

[gilesgoat]

I DO NOT UNDERSTAND 100% what really UK people wanted or hoped for, you get out of EU, of course you get borders and taxes and duties and NOT free market again, otherwise "what's the point of leaving then ?"

Just enough sheeple were herded into the "Leave" pen their nationalist tendancies stirred up by politicians and the media and UKIP. Most leave voters I've spoken to don't have a fucking clue what they want just some gumpf about 'getting our country back' and/or 'too many polish everywhere when I went to a shop'. Find me any rational argumens if you can.. I'm ANTI EU core anti-democratic principles, but "brussels rules makes all our deicions" is more exaggerated bollock and lies. Then there is the Euro-empire, euro state with euro army.. but ask leave voters most are just obviously a bit nationalist racist or thick maybe and whipped into frenzy by UK media and steered into voting for it.. "£350m pw for NHS" etc

Aside from the whole Russia destabalizing the west thing, which is definitely a phenomena... the real people behind brexit seem not to be voters but powerful elites and look who they are. Usually extremely wealthy, who would be affected by looming threats such as the EU anti-avoidance directives, which member states have to adhere to by 2019, coincidentally as we are set to leave the EU...

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/b ... rective_en

Same people with tht mindset of striping the people of their rights.. 'human rights' and such, as it inconveniences the exploitation of Britons to further their goals... notice how the Conservatives sought Henry VIII rules to rewrite alll the EU laws to their own agenda.. some of the leading leave views were exposed a Tory treatise Britannia Unchained check the reviews...

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Britannia-Unch ... 1137032235

Another "hot question" from a non-British .. but really "I don't exactly understand the purpose" .. if you have a government and such .. "what is the purpose of the monarchy/royal family ?" .. I never understood it .. "image" ?

Now if you ask me "what is the purpose of Berlusconi and such" .. I can easy answer "it's just that he's filthy rich and owns a fuckload of "critical" stuff in Italy" .. in fact he's so rich "he does not need to do anything" he's has enough money he would not need to move a finger and could ( and does ) just spend all his time in Bunga Bunga parties ..

However must be said "he's been clever enough" to make a lot of stuff work to HIS own advantage so he's not so silly as he seems.

If you ask me "whats' the purpose of many things in Italy" the EASY answer is "it's just that we can not get rid of them or replace them with something better", any time it ends up in actually or getting someway worse or getting better one side and much worse in another ...

The only things that "approx" all Italian can agree/feel unified with/for is that we have the best coffee, the best pasta, the best pizza and maybe the best fashion, anything else "won't work" because "it's not true anyway"

How you could possibly find ANY person/thing/stuff that could "represent Italy as a whole" ? NO FUCKING WAY, but maybe a coffee cup could do, must be the/a reason Italy is so proud about the food, at least we can say most Italian are really proper mental about coffee/food more than what they could be about any other living thing

I think after Mussolini and all that stuff nobody is ever going to take any "leader" seriously, too much "burn out" and nobody wants to be there again, better spend time eating pizza, drinking coffee and laughing ( and crying ) about someone like Berlusconi that CAN NOT be taken EVER too much "seriously"

"We don't need other leaders"

.. actually .. "thinking very deeply" .. there could be "a deep reason" about all this .. article number one of Italian constitution "Italy is a democratic republic founded on work."

It's the quality of what we DO that defines us, not leaders.

Makes some sense while coffee and pizza are more important than any other person.

[Little stoned kiwi]

So Brexit will lead to Northern Ireland building a wall? Sounds like a win.

[Barney]

Another "hot question" from a non-British .. but really "I don't exactly understand the purpose" .. if you have a government and such .. "what is the purpose of the monarchy/royal family ?" .. I never understood it .. "image" ?

The monarchy, in practice is basically the representatives we send abroad to shake hands and such. In theory, they control the armed forces which the government would need to use in order to smack the public down. If the monarchy doesn't agree then they won't order the military to comply. They're basically the last line of defense against a malicious government (as opposed to an incompetent one which they don't really care about). Nobody in the military is loyal to the government; just to the Queen.

That's the theory, anyway. As to whether or not it would pan out that way is anyone's guess.

[merman]

So David Davis lied to Parliament then.

"There are detailed Brexit impact statements... You can't see them."

"There are more than 50 studies, we can't publish them in full"

"We'll publish them but heavily redacted"

And then Parliament voted to see them in full, so he appears in front of the Select Committee and says

"There are no Brexit impact statements."

He should resign, and so should Maybot for putting him in charge of the negotiations.

[Harlequin]

Did he claim that they were actually "impact assessments", though, or just "sectoral analyses"? The Government did initially state that the Humble Address to produce such assessments "misunderstood" what the documents were. Rather than forecasts, all those alleged man-years of research and evaluation were only assessments of how vital an impact EU membership has on those sectors. In that sense, he may not have actually lied at all. It does seem, however, that he gravely misled Parliament.

[Rhythm]

Did he claim that they were actually "impact assessments", though, or just "sectoral analyses"? The Government did initially state that the Humble Address to produce such assessments "misunderstood" what the documents were. Rather than forecasts, all those alleged man-years of research and evaluation were only assessments of how vital an impact EU membership has on those sectors. In that sense, he may not have actually lied at all. It does seem, however, that he gravely misled Parliament.

His get-out today was purely based on that sort of semantic technicality.

A charge of "Contempt of Parliament" was raised against him the vote went 11-8 in his favour. The "jury" was made up of 10 Cons, 1 DUP and 8 "other". So totally impartial, obviously.

I swear, this fucking country right now. Tories and Labour both pursuing this shitty misguided goal of getting out of the EU, it genuinely hurts to see it underway.

Ed Milliband was on the Richard Herring podcast a couple of weeks ago. He was a Remainer who is now totally behind Labour's "Leave" goal. When pulled up on it he said "I was disappointed with the result and the campaign was based around a lot of misinformation but it does point to a massive divide in society so the important thing to do now is to leave then fix what caused the rift.".

Erm, fucking WHAT? What kind of shitty backward logic is that? Aside from the whole "advisory" get-out that was FUCKING BAKED INTO THE LAW OF THE REFERENDUM, how the fuck is cutting ties going to help with *any* of the problems that people are "unhappy" about?

[merman]

Did he claim that they were actually "impact assessments", though, or just "sectoral analyses"? The Government did initially state that the Humble Address to produce such assessments "misunderstood" what the documents were. Rather than forecasts, all those alleged man-years of research and evaluation were only assessments of how vital an impact EU membership has on those sectors. In that sense, he may not have actually lied at all. It does seem, however, that he gravely misled Parliament.

On multiple occasions he spoke publicly of the "detailed" impact statements, and that revealing them would be detrimental to the negotiations. The Mirror website had a list of SEVEN such statements.

Which doesn't explain why the EU made its own impact statements freely available months ago.