EU referendum are you in or out

Inane baanter or words of wisdom - you decide...
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EU Are you IN or OUT

In
98
77%
Out
21
17%
Undecided (shake it all about)
8
6%
 
Total votes: 127

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gilesgoat
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by gilesgoat »

merman wrote:*SNIP*

On multiple occasions he spoke publicly of the "detailed" impact statements, and that revealing them would be detrimental to the negotiations. The Mirror website had a list of SEVEN such statements.

*snip*
Statement #1 : it's going to be shit ..

Statement #2 : it's going to be shit ..

Statement #3 : it's going to be shit ..

Statement #4 : it's going to be shit ..

Statement #5 : see statement #4

Statement #6 : as above, so below

Statement #7 : it's going to be shit ..

:mrgreen:
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by KlaxonCow »

They chose not to make those impact assessments because they already knew that, yes, they'd have read exactly like the list Giles just gave.

And they made the deliberate calculation that it was better to be thought thoroughly incompetent for not doing your due diligence than it was for them to commission a series of official statements that would, indeed, basically read as a long list of reasons why "it's going to be shit".

They didn't forget. They just - rightly - made the calculation that it's better to be thought an incompetent fool but live in a world where there isn't an official formal government document that just says "this is going to be shit" over and over again, listing the million different ways that Brexit was a catastrophically horrible choice to have made.

And then trying to proceed with "Brexit means Brexit" to the mood music of having their own formal document that exhaustively documents, in fine statistical detail, just exactly how "it's going to be shit for the economy, it's going to be shit for manufacturing, it's going to be shit for its impact on the NHS, it's going to be shit for old people, it's going to be shit for young people, it's going to be shit for..." et cetera, et cetera.

They didn't incompetently forget to do it. They chose not to do it and are pleading incompetence, as that is, in a Machiavellian sense, the logically correct decision to make here.

Well, you know the saying:

"It's better to keep your mouth shut and appear a fool, than it is to open your mouth and remove all doubt".

I reckon that this is really what's going on here.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by Dio »

It's slightly more than that, in that you also have to layer on the mistrust of the Leave side towards the formal institutions of government's attitude to exit. They thoroughly expect that any prepared position papers would contain that sort of thing not just "because it's true" but because everyone is too invested / blind to see past the downsides.

So it's not merely the philosophy of the ostrich. There is a logic to it, from where they're sitting.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by gilesgoat »

Dio wrote:It's slightly more than that, in that you also have to layer on the mistrust of the Leave side towards the formal institutions of government's attitude to exit. They thoroughly expect that any prepared position papers would contain that sort of thing not just "because it's true" but because everyone is too invested / blind to see past the downsides.

So it's not merely the philosophy of the ostrich. There is a logic to it, from where they're sitting.
In essence it's still not 100% clear what's going to happen to EU nationals living/working in UK and to UK nationals living/working in EU, apart that they seems to say that "EU citizens will be subject to UK law" which "does not say anything in particular" at this point I assume that "UK citizens in EU will be subject to EU law" .. that again "does not say anything in particular" .. yet ..

So it appears that for 2 more years UK someway will be "in the open market at certain conditions", conditions it seems from what I read "yet to be defined" and then probably is going to leave it with new agreements yet to be done in place.

At this point sad to say but "it should be really interesting if UK is really going to make a real curb to immigration" .. because it would be "almost surreal" if after all this mess "nothing happens" and will be really "interesting" to see what they are actually going to do, we will see if "finally" "all those gazillions of works being stolen" will return back into UK ?
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by (o)(o) »

OK guys.. prepared to be amazed...
David Davis: There is a proper role for referendums in constitutional change, but only if done properly. If it is

26 Nov 2002 : Column 202

not done properly, it can be a dangerous tool. The Chairman of the Public Administration Committee, who is no longer in the Chamber, said that Clement Attlee—who is, I think, one of the Deputy Prime Minister's heroes—famously described the referendum as the device of demagogues and dictators. We may not always go as far as he did, but what is certain is that pre-legislative referendums of the type the Deputy Prime Minister is proposing are the worst type of all.
Referendums should be held when the electorate are in the best possible position to make a judgment. They should be held when people can view all the arguments for and against and when those arguments have been rigorously tested. In short, referendums should be held when people know exactly what they are getting. So legislation should be debated by Members of Parliament on the Floor of the House, and then put to the electorate for the voters to judge.

We should not ask people to vote on a blank sheet of paper and tell them to trust us to fill in the details afterwards. For referendums to be fair and compatible with our parliamentary process, we need the electors to be as well informed as possible and to know exactly what they are voting for. Referendums need to be treated as an addition to the parliamentary process, not as a substitute for it.
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/c ... 126-17.htm
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by merman »

Theresa May's red lines didn't last long.
Eighteen months, we still have to pay to leave and the pound is 18% lower. :roll:
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by PFVA »

A small intermission on the Brexit issue.

Here we get a Finance Minister that gets our economy going a little bit better and the EU takes him to preside the Euro Group. Let's hope that doesn't mess us up. :roll:
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by KlaxonCow »

I love that the Brexit Committee has had to drop the "contempt of Parliament" charges against David Davis for withholding the Brexit impact assessments from them that he said he had, on the technicality that they, in fact, never existed.

Just as you can't charge someone for the murder of someone who's not actually been murdered or charge someone for the theft of something that hasn't been stolen, you can't exactly charge someone with contempt for withholding information they never actually had in the first place.

Creating the bizarre situation where he's not guilty of contempt of Parliament because he's been repeatedly lying to them for months that he had reports that he'd never actually done. Which, you know, is a perfectly contemptuous thing to have done to Parliament.

Ah, we've got another year of this shit ahead of us too. Joy.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by (o)(o) »

This comment got a lot of upvotes on Guardian.

Just sharing...
What David Davis's admission reveals is the tip of a very large iceberg and that iceberg is a secret coup d'etat that has taken place within the Tory party to use brexit as a Trojan horse to smuggle radical neoliberal policies into the heart of government.

If you are committed to forcing hard brexit and a total break with the EU, why would you bother with assessing the impact of this on the economy? And if you did actually produce such reports and they showed a massive impact costing vast numbers of jobs, exports, investment lost and that hard brexit would lead to a deep recession and the halving or worse of real incomes, if this leaked it would destroy any case for brexit.

David Davis also let slip that he considers any economic forecasting on brexit to be worthless because brexit will be a "paradigm shift" in the economy.

Translating this into political realities, what he really means is that he sees brexit not as evolutionary change in the economy, but a revolutionary one. This is in effect a right-wing revolution - David Cameron refused to be the puppet of the Brexit junta in the Tory party, so they put Theresa May in to do the job.

She in turn appointed the three horsemen of the Brexit apocalypse to manage the coup.

I suspect if you ask Liam Fox to produce information on trade impact of hard brexit, you would get the same raspberry as Davis gave. Ask Johnson about the assessment done by the FCWO on how hard brexit impacts diplomacy and our influence in the world - another raspberry.

What this tells us is that there is no attempt to assess options and choose those that offer the biggest advantages and the least downside. This is about forcing hard brexit through at any price, whilst doing their utmost never to allow any objective assessment of what that price is likely to be.

The media reports brexit as a tussle over detail, a Byzantine Brussels negotiation process and infighting in Tory ranks and mud slinging by Labour.

What is really going on is akin to the secret plan developed to smash the mining industry and the NUM in the 1980s,but on a vastly more extreme scale. Behind the scenes there is an inner cabal of neoliberal fanatics hell bent on using brexit to completely reshape Britain.

Quite simply they plan to apply chaos capitalism to the economy and use it to force drastic changes on us all. Welfare, the NHS, public services? Unaffordable once tax revenues collapse. Regulation, taxation and state intervention? All must go to attract in the feral rich by turning the UK into their wet dream offshore tax haven.

And the resources, Money and media support they received to narrowly win the referendum and sustain them now came from foreign interests who stand to make a killing out of the deep economic crisis that hard brexit will cause.

So how would you characterise such activity?

I would call it treachery. I would call it treasonous. I would describe those involved as staging a coup d'etat to seize power from within to impose policies on the people of this country that would never receive a mandate at the ballot box,let alone get into a Tory manifesto.

Democracy is being dispensed with. We and our elected representatives are being played for fools.

Once hard brexit happens, the economy will go off a cliff. Once we are in the deep crisis the junta will have taken control of every facet of government, the real business of smashing the state can begin.

Already the plan to deploy the armed forces at the borders once brexit has happened has been announced.

The brexit bill proposes to end the process of parliament making law. Ministers will issue decrees to make new law, not MPs.

This country is undergoing a secret coup that will see democracy suspended, force used to quell unrest and complete economic chaos deliberately caused to allow a radical restructuring of our society and economy to be imposed on us against our will.

This is treason.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by Harlequin »

The charge that the Committee was deciding, whether Davis was in contempt for not providing what was asked for, was dropped. I think that the Speaker of the House is being consulted on whether a different contempt charge can be brought for deliberately misleading Parliament.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by Little stoned kiwi »

With all the tension I wonder if Brexit will trigger a true resurgence in British identity, with mobs and hanging and drawing and quartering.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by (o)(o) »

"Tory whips make legal threat to rebels before crucial Brexit vote"

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ory-rebels

What a complete farce ..

Tonights amendment 7 vote a significant constitutional moment
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by (o)(o) »

Well that's a glimmer of hope for democracy (Alabama too) govt defeated.

Thank fuck basically you know the Tories would abuse these Henry VIII powers.

Brexit loony Dominic Raab who defended them is one of the authors of :

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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by VNVObit »

gilesgoat wrote: *snip*

Question for NI could be "are you Irish or are you British or are you both" ??

watch episode 8 of The Blame Game on BBC iPlayer ( it's a compilation episode) which is a satirical NI comedy programme (you'll need to go to A to Z under comedy to find it)
One of the guests asks the panel that very question - just watch the responses!
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by (o)(o) »

These Tories couldn't organise an orderly exit in a 'pub' (political and economic union of 28 member states)... Sheesh

Loving how Theresa May has tied both her own arms behind her back, whilst John Major is stabbing her in the front and the rest of party to boot, prior to her final speech today.

C'mon JEZ... Back of the net awaits.. :P

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