EU referendum are you in or out

[skab]

Now it's eight.

And at the same time the Corbyn party has embraced Derek Hatton with open arms back into the fold. The guy who wanted to rule Liverpool like a banana republic dictator and ruined the city for years.

Sorry to all you Corbyn apologists, with him at the helm Labour's fucked. And since he's a not-so-secret-Brexiteer as well, the rest of you gets fucked by proxy as well.

[Absolute_Zero]

Yay, Degsy!


In related time-travel news, gorgeous George Galloway is seeking re-addmission.

Apparently, Ian Austin could be #9

Foot, aim, FIRE!
Ruth George sorry for claiming ex-Labour MPs may have Israeli backing.

In a perverse way, possibly good news for JC superstar. Phillip Lee writes to May:


Rationale: Con refugees *might* push May towards an election.

Rumours suggest 3 Tories may abandon ship... but probably not Lee. Wollaston and Soubry seem likely candidates.

[EDIT] it has just happened. Wollaston, Soubry and Heidi Allen.

[RiK]

Rumours suggest 3 Tories may abandon ship... but probably not Lee. Wollaston and Soubry seem likely candidates.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... s-say-may/

[Barney]

Can anyone point out to me what Labour people have said that's antisemitic? I've seen a lot about it on the news but don't know what they actually said.

[zip accident]

Can anyone point out to me what Labour people have said that's antisemitic? I've seen a lot about it on the news but don't know what they actually said.

From what I'ver seen, it's the failure to endorse the claim that criticising the state of Israel is anti-semitic, which lack is the correct stance in my view..

[Rhythm]

Can anyone point out to me what Labour people have said that's antisemitic? I've seen a lot about it on the news but don't know what they actually said.

Glad you asked - I read the BBC Primer they posted but I'm still honestly none the wiser.

Joan Ryan claimed JC himself brought in the anti-Semitism but from the outside, and because they're not actually specifying details, it could almost look like the factions of Labour that don't like Corbyn are manufacturing a reason to oust him. Not saying that's what's happening, but in the absence of any specific detail it certainly looks that way

[Rhythm]

From what I'ver seen, it's the failure to endorse the claim that criticising the state of Israel is anti-semitic, which lack is the correct stance in my view..

?

[zip accident]

From what I'ver seen, it's the failure to endorse the claim that criticising the state of Israel is anti-semitic, which lack is the correct stance in my view..

?

Can anyone point out to me what Labour people have said that's antisemitic? I've seen a lot about it on the news but don't know what they actually said.

Glad you asked - I read the BBC Primer they posted but I'm still honestly none the wiser.

Joan Ryan claimed JC himself brought in the anti-Semitism but from the outside, and because they're not actually specifying details, it could almost look like the factions of Labour that don't like Corbyn are manufacturing a reason to oust him. Not saying that's what's happening, but in the absence of any specific detail it certainly looks that way

After a long-running row, Labour has adopted, in full, the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance's definition, and accompanying examples, of anti-Semitism.

It included an extra statement saying this should not undermine free speech on Israel. Jeremy Corbyn proposed a longer additional statement - which would have allowed criticism of the foundation of the state of Israel as racist - but this was not accepted by the party's ruling executive.

Allowing any criticism of the state of Israel is seen as anti-semitic by backers of the state of Israel. Some of these MPs may be fools, remainers who don't really care about anti-semitism or strong backers of the Israeli state.

[Rhythm]

Sorry, I was just asking about the use of the word "lack".

Yeah, I've heard about the "you disagree with Israel? You're obviously a racist" view before but surely it can't all still hinge on that?

[zip accident]

Sorry, I was just asking about the use of the word "lack".

Yeah, I've heard about the "you disagree with Israel? You're obviously a racist" view before but surely it can't all still hinge on that?

I was unsure how else to make it clear that I disagreed with the idea that the state of Israel is perfect, there may have been better ways to phrase it, but I like brief descriptions. Being too laconic is a fault I struggle with.

I agree that it seems there ought to be something more, but if there actually is I don't know about it.

[tufty]

Allowing any criticism of the state of Israel is seen as anti-semitic by backers of the state of Israel.

Decried as anti-semitic, actually. In some cases (see below) there is good reason to do so, but often it's a deliberate attempt to stamp on legitimate criticism.

There's a very similar argument going on in France at the moment, where Macron appears to be about to bring in a law where being "anti-zionist" is automatically equated to being antisemitic. This is partly because the extreme right have got a bit cleverer recently, and rather than describing someone as a "filthy shitty jew", they'll use "filthy shitty zionist" instead; this is exactly what happened to Alain Finkielkraut the other day. Unfortunately, cracking down on poorly camouflaged antisemitism by inventing new laws rather than actually using the ones that already exist means that technically it will become illegal to be against any policy the state of Israel wants to carry out. Somewhat ironic that a state with strict separation of state and church makes it illegal to criticise a totally theist state.

[Absolute_Zero]

^ Judaism is certainly privileged in Israel... but "totally theist" is wrong. Otherwise you wouldn't see orthodox groups campaigning for Israel to become a theocratic state.

Degsy suspended over 2012 tweet.

Cons: 38
Labour: 26
IG: 14
LD: 7
Other: 15

[Fieldwork: 18th - 19th February 2019]
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/ar ... dent-group

[Barney]

Thanks chaps. I'd done some googling, and was none the wiser as to what anyone was supposed to have done. It seems entirely reasonable to me to criticise the policies of a nation without calling into question the integrity of any particular individuals, but that's just me I suppose. I must be antisemitic, I guess?

According to the Wiki article on antisemitism:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism#Definition

In 2005, the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (now Fundamental Rights Agency), then an agency of the European Union, developed a more detailed working definition, which states: "Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities." It also adds that "such manifestations could also target the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity," but that "criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic."

So it does indeed seem that someone is, or some people are, trying to usurp it in favour of deposing certain sections of the labour party, no?

[VNVObit]

Corbyn in antisemitism row after backing artist behind 'offensive' mural

Labour row erupts over no confidence vote in Luciana Berger
Labour says it has looked into 673 cases of alleged antisemitism
https://medium.com/@OwenJones84/labour-and-the-anti-semitism-saga-or-walking-and-chewing-gum-d0c6388aa661



not sure what googling skills people have but not hard to find a few articles on the subject
Last one admits that response has been less than adequate

[Rhythm]

Those articles highlight the exact problem with the reporting, though. The Luciana Berger case wasn't backed with any publicly-viewable evidence (or even anecdotes). The "673 cases investigated" thing still doesn't include any *actual* examples. Neither does the Owen Jones piece. They're borderline non-stories.

The graffiti incident is a bit more tangible, but "liking" a dodgy piece of media or art isn't in itself an endorsement in a belief system.

Compare with cases where (sticking with Labour) Dianne Abbott has very publicly "outed"racists by sharing their letters, tweets, FB messages. Or with gay MPs who took part in this documentary.

I'm not saying that the Labour Party doesn't have anti-Semites amongst its ranks, and maybe they've felt emboldened by JC's anti-Israel stance. But it's all so... vaporware. And where there's no actual evidence on display, it's really easy to wander down the "maybe there's something else behind all this?" path.