EU referendum are you in or out

Inane baanter or words of wisdom - you decide...
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EU Are you IN or OUT

In
98
77%
Out
21
17%
Undecided (shake it all about)
8
6%
 
Total votes: 127

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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by Harlequin »

KlaxonCow wrote:BoJo's "do or die" could well mean "die" for the UK as a union.
Curiously, the origin of the phrase 'do or die' appears to be Robert Burns's tribute to Scottish sovereignty, 'Scots Wha Hae'. 'Scots Wha Hae' is the party song of the SNP.

See also: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -minister-
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by Rubisco »

gilesgoat wrote:
Little stoned kiwi wrote:Perhaps you'll all be able to apply for refugee status in the EU after Brexit.
Thing is I'll still be an EU Citizen anywhere else in EU ...

Now considering that Ireland is going to be shit, Scotland too and such we are planning to move sheep and all to Brazil, for the moment just in theory, if the situation really falls could be "less theory".
I know you had a lovely holiday Giles, but if your plan is to escape right wing populism then I need to submit the following bug report:
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by gilesgoat »

Rubisco wrote:
gilesgoat wrote:
Little stoned kiwi wrote:Perhaps you'll all be able to apply for refugee status in the EU after Brexit.
Thing is I'll still be an EU Citizen anywhere else in EU ...

Now considering that Ireland is going to be shit, Scotland too and such we are planning to move sheep and all to Brazil, for the moment just in theory, if the situation really falls could be "less theory".
I know you had a lovely holiday Giles, but if your plan is to escape right wing populism then I need to submit the following bug report:
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I know .. I know ... we were aware of that and we even had "an emergency plan" in case of ...

But we are talking about ending up somewhere "far away from too much civilization" away from that.

Sounds like the whole of the world, politically speaking, is turning into some sort of turd huh ?
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by PFVA »

The 5 world leaders with vetoeing rights in the UN decisions:

Donald Trump
Vladmir Putin
Xi Jinping
Boris Johnson
Emmanuel Macron

Not to say that other countries have better leaders either.


Note: Giles, if i were you i would stay in Wales. I don't see riots reaching your corner of the woods if they ever happen. You are far away enough from cities to have big problems there. And unlike our interior lands apocalyptic fires aren't happenning there yet. I just saw on telly that they were raising donations to get a enough large quantity of food and hay to feed the 2500 sheep left without pasture after the last big fire which was a week ago. No one died, one person got wounded, they were able to save the houses, and most animals but the pastures are gone. Actually a few companies who produce food for the animals came thru providing some immediate help.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by KlaxonCow »

Dio wrote:The next step is a GE with no deal at the core of the Tory manifesto, because Boris can't force no deal through without a majority of at least 30. He persuades Farage to stand down based on the solid promise of no deal, and if you add together the polling numbers for those two parties vs Labour's pathetic showing you get a 100+ majority landslide.
Yes. That would be a logical course of action. Unfortunately.

Although, it's not without its risks. The Tories suffered heavy defeats not just to the Brexit party in the European elections, but - just beforehand - also lost badly to pro-European parties, like the Lib Dems and Greens, in the local English elections.

So it's not at all clear cut that a General Election would go that way - the European elections are different and people don't vote the same way in them. And those particular European elections were, of course, a very particular circumstance, as they were only necessary at all because we failed to Brexit when we were supposed to, and were bound to be dominated by the "why haven't we left already?" protest vote (while Remainers had less reason to come out in force, as - if we are Brexiting - then the vote is purely academic, as they literally won't be actually doing anything useful - that's where the October 31st date comes from, as November 1st is when the new EU commission starts. The deadline is exactly "get out of there the day before").

The Brexit Party is a new variable - they were not running in those local elections - so who knows what'll happen? But the combined pro-Europe vote in those elections did technically win (and UKIP was running to gather up the pro-Brexit vote). So it's not at all an obvious and clear walk over necessarily.

Plus, as we've become all too familiar with, predicting votes has become a rather random sport of late. Democracy has become rather impossible to predict all over the globe lately.

(And as I've covered, it's all a massive red herring.

Because it's not immigration nor globalisation that's the cause of our modern woes. It's the steady rise of technology and automation that's actually been creeping along, stealing all the jobs and depressing wages. Not necessarily by direct replacement with a robot - not unless you work on the factory floor in manufacturing, where your job is quite literally taken over by a robot - but the subtle assimilation of more and more work by machine and automated process. Because computers and robots often have the effect that a single person is now capable of doing far more. Automated calendars, text-to-speech, emails, etc. eating into the usefulness of having secretaries and personal assistants. Emails, word processors, photocopiers and deskjet printers meaning that companies that once has a "print department" no longer need that, as people manage their own communications now. You get the gist. The loss doesn't necessarily come from "you're fired!" and Robbie the robot is sitting at your desk tomorrow. But from how, over time, there's been less and less "you're hired" for once specialist jobs that now ain't needed, as the staff you do hire can now manage much more with the assistance of technology. One person is now doing what was previously 4 or 5 jobs.

Look at any modern high street. Retail is dying. And, obviously, it's not because people aren't buying things - we haven't all just stopped requiring needing stuff. It's because they're ordering it online, getting home deliveries or, for entertainment, it's all digital downloading over the Internet, so there is no physical product for you to go to the shops to obtain anymore.

And, soon enough, "online" is going to get rid of high street banks - as that's already going on - and with most payments now being "sans cash" then we don't need them there to supply the ATM machines either. So it's all food places - and even that, of course, gets eaten into (pardon the pun) by online and phone home deliveries - and charity shops. But even there: There's Deliveroo for food, and there's eBay for flogging off your old tat.

I don't know if the political classes are simply also ignorant that this is the real problem - that they are as duped as the general population in thinking, erroneously, that it's "brown people" at fault - or they do know but are deliberately avoiding the subject.

Because I kind of get that. I, myself, of course, ply my trade in technology. I'm a coder and I'm responsible for some of this "increased automation".

And I totally appreciate that while I make this "neo-Luddite" case, I'm Joseph Marie Jacquard and I'm quite literally multi-tasking between writing this and coding up a new "automated loom".

I ain't stopping. And I think this is perhaps the real underlying issue. Automation might be slowly eating into our jobs and our very social structure, but none of us would give it up. Because automation is a good thing, in terms of Jacquard's looms can knock out any design precisely way faster and at a fraction of the price - and, ultimately, we're all consumers of clothing, right? Even the Luddite can't deny that the machine's product is excellent and hella cheap to buy.

This shit has been going on for decades, of course. But I feel we're now reaching the point where it's biting - and that it is accelerating, as automated vehicles are around the corner, which will wipe out taxi drivers and delivery truck drivers. It also represents a major step - the crucial milestone - towards "human-less production". The idea of production that, from mining the raw resources, all the way to an automated van bringing it to your front door, things could be produced without a single human being involved whatsoever.

E.g. mining robots putting raw material on the back of automated delivery trucks, that bring it to the robots and 3D printers on the factory floor, which creates the product for the automated delivery vans to bring to your front door - after you've ordered the product online - and no human being was ever involved in this process at all (well, other than in a supervisory role - to repair things, as these are machines and a well-designed machine simply doesn't get anything wrong, so the humans are basically there to simply repair worn out parts - and even that job could eventually be automated away).

What then? Whole companies, whole industries, manned by a "skeleton crew" of humans, who're only there to ensure that the machines keep running.

It's not just the lost human jobs. Robots don't need to be paid. So, you know, no income tax. No National Insurance contributions.

One has to realise where the end of this road leads: It will conspire towards annihilating the very concept of money itself.

On one level, that's a good thing. Abundance for all. On another level - oh my god! - how the fuck could any of that ever work? Panic! Panic! This undermines the fundamentals of how human societies operate and we haven't got a fucking clue - we're not even talking about it - how the hell any of this could possibly function.

No wages? No taxes? Umm, then eventually no "universal income" either, because where's the taxes going to come from for funding that, with the entire human race "claiming benefits"?

This is not going to happen uniformly either. Some things are easier to automate than others. So we'll have an uneven situation, with some people still employed, while others are unemployable, as robots do their jobs better and cheaper.

This "transition period" is not going to be remotely pretty. And I honestly have zero idea - as I think it through - how we could even possibly manage it all sensibly, and without causing massive pain to someone or another somewhere.

Like how's it going to work? "Don't worry, jobless masses. In 50 years' time, we'll eventually work out how to fully automate all food production and then everything will be fine. If you could just quietly starve in the meantime. Console yourself with the thought that, eventually, it'll be okay, even if, right now, it's an intolerable Hell on Earth of pain for you personally."

But, bizarrely, that is kind of what politicians are actually doing, as they ignore the real problem and instead ride on "it's the brown people!" red herring lies to distract them all.

It's not the brown people. The brown people are eventually just as fucked as anyone else.

How long will Indian call centres survive, once the robot assistant is finally perfected?



(Noting that it doesn't have to be "human-level intelligence" perfect. Only "good enough" that you can call up the robots, get them to satisfactorily fix your problems and then hang up. They don't have to be capable of discussing Shakespearean poetry with you or anything. Just stuff like "I've lost my bank card. Can you cancel it?" or "my broadband isn't working, can you send an engineer around?".)

This is why I find this whole Brexit - and Trump - nonsense to be slightly insane and surreal irrelevance. A bit like calling in an exorcist to "dispel evil spirits" when you've got a fever, rather than going to the doctor's. It's absolutely not going to work, because you are 100% misdiagnosing what the fuck is actually going on here. Your illness is not caused by "evil spirits" and your joblessness / wage depression is not caused by "brown people wearing hijabs, talking a funny language on the train" either (they're as fucked as you - in fact, more so, because why the hell do you think they emigrated from another country to come here in the first place? Because, back where they come from, shit's even more economically worse!)

Which is a worry. As none of this is going to be solved any time soon, while apparently no-one is even looking in the right direction for an actual useful solution, and are just almost superstitiously blaming some magical "bogeyman" in their heads for it all. Which is bound to go well.

Brexit, like Communism, was just a red herring.

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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by skab »

gilesgoat wrote:But we are talking about ending up somewhere "far away from too much civilization" away from that.
You'll be far away from civilization as we know it anyway if Boris gets his way...

Why are Ireland and Scotland going to be shit, exactly? Long-term I see a lot better future for both of them compared to Little England.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by merman »

Boris - 20,000 extra police officers

Reality - Tories have cut 22,000 since 2010, can't magic another 20,000 recruits out of nowhere without extra funding

Boris - new EU deal without the backstop

Reality - EU and Ireland say the backstop stays

Boris - high-speed rail for you Northeners

Reality - can't afford HS2 which is now twice over budget, nine years of failed promises of electrification & new trains on existing rails. Oh, and remember Boris Island and the Garden Bridge that costs the taxpayers millions and failed to happen?


(What is particularly galling is him standing in Manchester claiming all this stuff about the Northern Powerhouse, rebalancing the economy and growth - and we have heard it all promised before without happening. Investment will stay in the South East.)
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by KlaxonCow »

Jacob Rees Mogg really is "the honourable member from the 18th century".

As the new Commons Leader, he's issued a set of linguistical rules to be obeyed to his staff, which includes golden nuggets like the insistence that they must always use imperial measurements, and all non-titled males should be given the suffix "Esq.".

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... s-to-staff

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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by F-ZeroOne »

HS2 is not "twice over budget" yet. The official budget is still around £56 billion. There is a lot of media bias against HS2 for some reason, despite the fact that as planned its pretty much the railway that the media have been asking for for years, yet they've largely decided they all hate it. Although our new PM is reportedly not a fan, its worth mentioning that despite the current political situation, it still has broad cross-party support (possibly because it was a Labour idea in the first place).

For the record, I'm broadly supportive of HS2 even though it will bring virtually no benefits to the area where I live (at least in the short term - if its used as a basis to expand as the Japanese shinkansen network was, that may change, though I'll probably have uploaded my sentience to the MechaPope by the time it reaches my current part of the world). Having said that, the recent problems with GWR electrification and CrossRail have made me rather less optimistic about the project than previously, and the "twice over budget" figure reportedly comes from the new HS2 chairman - though its not twice[/] over budget, its £30 billion. Still an eye-watering sum, but whats another £20 billion between (also unconfirmed; if they turn out to be true then fair enough) reports?

Its also worth noting that preliminary construction on the project has already started.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by snaff »

There will probably be a lot more of these infrastructure projects to come. All the inflation that went into housing in the past twenty years is about to come out of there and go into general price inflation. In five years inflation will be 12% and the government will still be repaying borrowed money to bond holders at today's 0.5% so they will be putting up free railway lines, power stations and bridges all round.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by merman »

F-ZeroOne wrote:HS2 is not "twice over budget" yet. The official budget is still around £56 billion. There is a lot of media bias against HS2 for some reason, despite the fact that as planned its pretty much the railway that the media have been asking for for years, yet they've largely decided they all hate it. Although our new PM is reportedly not a fan, its worth mentioning that despite the current political situation, it still has broad cross-party support (possibly because it was a Labour idea in the first place).

For the record, I'm broadly supportive of HS2 even though it will bring virtually no benefits to the area where I live (at least in the short term - if its used as a basis to expand as the Japanese shinkansen network was, that may change, though I'll probably have uploaded my sentience to the MechaPope by the time it reaches my current part of the world). Having said that, the recent problems with GWR electrification and CrossRail have made me rather less optimistic about the project than previously, and the "twice over budget" figure reportedly comes from the new HS2 chairman - though its not twice[/] over budget, its £30 billion. Still an eye-watering sum, but whats another £20 billion between (also unconfirmed; if they turn out to be true then fair enough) reports?

Its also worth noting that preliminary construction on the project has already started.


Very few parts of the country will benefit economically from HS2 - East Yorkshire and Lincolnshire will LOSE OUT financially, according to KPMG figures.

Spending the same money across the network (new trains and signals, electrification) would benefit MORE.

And that building. That means knocking down hundreds of homes, including a new estate less than three years old near Sheffield, because it took so long for the final route to be decided.

And since the pound is continuing to fall, the costs will rise - since we are buying in trains and steel to make HS2 when we make both of these in this country. Or used to. The way things are going we won't have any manufacturing left.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by F-ZeroOne »

I do find it a curious argument that it shouldn't be built because "only a few parts of the country will benefit". As I said, its likely HS2 will have no effect on my part of the world at all. Its likely a third runway at Heathrow or a second one at Gatwick won't either. Someone will likely lose out, and someone will likely gain.

I'm having trouble finding anything about that KPMG report specific to East Yorkshire or Lincolnshire thats less than six years old, do you have a direct link please?

The closest railway line to me is single track with a few crossing points for about half of its length to London. Even if HS2 was cancelled, its unlikely in the same time-frame anything is going to be done about it. One argument HS2 supporters make is that theres an assumption that if the money for HS2 isn't used to build HS2, it will just be sitting there waiting there to be used on something else. That is not necessarily the case. The decision could be made not to spend the money at all, and thats assuming that the government is just sitting on the HS2 funds like a goose sitting on an egg.

HS2 is also in addition, not instead of, rail spending elsewhere. Could £56 billion be useful to the rest of the rail network? Yes. But as I argue above, that doesn't mean thats what it would get spent on.

All major infrastructure projects affect someone. I wouldn't want it happening to me, either. But it is a sad fact of such things - lets take the example often used of "widening the West Coast Main Line" (an example often used to argue against HS2). Someone is going to be affected in some way by that alternative.

We already buy trains in from "elsewhere" (and this would be the case even if HS2 funds were used for new rolling stock on upgraded lines, which is likely to be needed if you're electrifying them) - though one of the bidders for rolling stock is that famously "Build Our Trains Here!" company Bombardier (whose H.Q. is in Berlin... ).
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by KlaxonCow »

I'm dubious about the entire proposition.

That is, that cutting journey times to Birmingham from around 1hr 21min to 49 minutes would make much economic difference on the Birmingham end anyway.

I can't see businesses thinking "should we locate our operations in London or Birmingham?" and then, being deeply impressed with a half hour knocked off the journey time to London, they think "yes, Birmingham for us".

(I mean, the rich successful business owners and founders don't go by public transport anyway. So why would they give a fuck?)

Not least because that logic still depends on being linked to London. That London is where people will be coming from and going to. That London is the centre that you have to be connected to. And, you know, if we were talking about American distances - New York to L.A. - with the corresponding lengthy journey times then being able to knock off a third or so of the journey time would be useful and impressive. But it's only 1 hour 20 minutes at the moment.

Who is really following the logic of "1 hour 20 minutes? Pfft, impossible! Infeasible! Our economic fortunes would be ruined. What's that? You can get it down to 49 minutes? Oh, why didn't you say so before? Locate our operations in Birmingham immediately! We're in the money, we're in the money..."?

Nah, there's only one situation where this makes sense. Commuting.

Birmingham house prices, but a London wage - and less than an hour to commute into work (so let's call it less than 2 hours from home to office, adding in up to an hour of travelling across London on the Tube).

And, of course, it's all going to work in that direction and not the other way around, because who would opt for London house prices and a Birmingham wage? Indeed, with typical London house prices, that's possibly even economically impossible - that after rent / mortgage, you literally haven't got enough left to survive.

It's about making London bigger. Extending its commuter reach. Which is not really going to help "the North", but rather suck it dry in a "brain drain" towards London. Or just give Londoners a bigger and cheaper house in the Birmingham suburbs, while keeping their London wages.

Of course, this is all predicated on them being able to consistently keep the trains running at up to 250mph - faster than any trains operating in Europe currently - or all that "time saved" stuff is meaningless. And I'm remembering how in "the age of the train", the Intercity 125s were supposed to go, well, at up to 125mph. Half that speed. And how often did they, in practice, actually reach top speed? The track has to be well-maintained or, for safety reasons, they lower the speed limit.

So maybe it'll manage 49 minutes on its maiden journey, but in 5 years' time or 10 years' time? With the track record (pardon the pun) that the government / train authorities have in maintaining our track infrastructure in tip top condition?

Yeah, bollocks, I reckon.

The whole concept is broken, as it's basically London thinking that the best way to improve "the North" is to make it faster to get to London from there. "You poor Northerners. Here, come to London a half hour quicker. That'll fix everything".

Their brains are so London-centric, they don't even see how twisted this thinking even is.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by F-ZeroOne »

Okay, KlaxonCow, arguably theres a few misconceptions in your reply here.

HS2 is designed up to 250mph, it will likely not reach that speed in service, at least not to begin with. 250mph is "future-proofing" to a degree (yes, not to the degree of introducing maglevs or hyperloops or personal jetpacks); if you're going to build a largely new rail line anyway then you can (expensively) build a touch of planning-ahead in to begin with or you retroactively do it later (expensively) if the need arises. Its probably cheaper in the long-term to have it 250mph ready to start with.

I take the point about London, but I have problems seeing how to alleviate the issue; for better or worse London is where the political and economic "weight" of the country is. I do wonder if similar arguments were raised about the TGV or Shinkansen regards Paris and Tokyo respectively (Tokyo, I know, has a similar problem to many industrialised countries, people are moving there or close to and depopulating the rural areas. Whether or not this is a consequence of having a highly developed rapid train service I couldn't say).

Incidentally, "Shinkansen" literally means "new trunk line". New train lines in general have maintenance built into their planning, like HS1 does. Things still go "boing" occasionally, even on the shinkansen routes.

Phase 1 of HS2 is indeed about Birmingham and London. Phase 2 however promised to cut journey times between Birmingham and Manchester by about half and Glasgow to London times to about 3 hours and 40 minutes. This is virtually never mentioned in most reporting I've seen about HS2 which almost always concentrates on the London to Birmingham times.

Some have argued that the whole speed thing was a tactical mistake by the government PR wise to begin with. It is not the only reason HS2 is being built; capacity is the rarely mentioned benefit, something which is reportedly badly needed on the West Coast Main Line. With HS2 taking over on some routes, there is the opportunity to free train paths to allow either more stopping services or add a bit more "give" in the timetable. Some passengers may have slower journeys as a result, but some communities may gain additional services as a result too.

This may be all academic anyway. Our new PM has appointed an anti-HS guy as his "transport advisor".

Edit: misread some information about Birmingham to Manchester times as Manchester to London times; have corrected.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by gilesgoat »

.. this is another "mystery of life I never understood and probably will never understand" ...

It would appear ( or so it looks to me that ) :

1. "almost no state managed to ever have railway satisfactory working"

2. there always been a time were railways where state managed only and things were quite good

3. there always is a time then when they get privatised and stuff gets MUCH worse, prices raises, services become crap

4. and yet they insist '3 is MUCH better than 2' and NO WAY WE CAN NOT RETURN TO '2'

5. at some point "someone comes out with let's do High Speed trains/lines" that should improve "something"

Now 5 we have in Italy "even before UK" with MASSIVE protests and shit cause to create that project they are going to destroy a lot of properties and crap but, at least in the case of Italy there's this story as well :

1. transport of goods/stuff ( in Italy ) ALWAYS been "SINCE EVER" 90% by wheels, maybe 10% by trains

2. this is due a "really shitty infrastructure/system/organization" of railway and goods transportation, they never managed to
make it work no matter what (*)

3. (*) also due corruption/things/"pushing" for it "not to go better", hard to say "why they can't make it work fine ?"

4. probably "high speed" will mean "and no we have high speed trains that are still maybe used 10%"

5. Also in Italy they are/would be "more useful" if they are between Italy/Europe as far as we know "Italy-France" could be a thing but "Italy-Somewhere else" there are a lot of places "not willing to do it" so we'd end up with just a bit of trains that still probably nobody would use. (***)

The only thing we know for semi sure is that "High Speed Trains" would mean "for some years work for some companies/people" probably lot of money throw into "endless pits" jobs done so and so and maybe even never finished and shit like that.

But yeah "again another one with high speed trains" that "no one really knows for sure what mysterious benefits should do".


[edit] - (***) If you read current Italian news you may heard things about this TAV ( Treni Alta Velocita' - HIGH SPEED TRAIINS ) and the weirdness we got into ..

Apart protests, clashes with police, shit going on since years, crap that will still come ...

It seem at some point "current parties at power" decided "ok scrap that shit we are NOT going to do it we don't need it" ... ..

Except .. they just came back to their words when they realised WE DO NOT HAVE THE MONEY TO PAY THE *PENALITY* FOR BREACHING THE CONTRACTS/PROMISES WITH THE OTHER COUNTRIES .. .. .. therefore ... WE GO ON DOING A THING WE *BELIEVE IS USELESS FOR US* BECAUSE WE CAN NOT PAY FOR NOT TO DO SO .. ..

.. and this is still "nothing" .. every DAMNED DAY you hear in Italy more and more shit .. ..

.. don't go into the same shit .. don't .. stay away !! ..
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