EU referendum are you in or out

[tufty]

If you thing the majority of people are going to look any further than pages 87-92, or even bother to skim-read them rather than taking what's reported in the press, along with "BONKERS CORBYN TO NATIONALISE AIDS NIGGER IMIGRUNTS", you're mental.

All that matters is Brexit.

Funny then that a poll this week said that the biggest issue for voters was the NHS.

At least Labour don't stoop as low as the Tories, who set up a fake Labour manifesto site - breaching electoral rules and Google advertising rules along the way. A clear intent to deceive.

There was also that thing about "rebranding" their twitter account as a fact checking account during the debate. that was a "classy" move.

[KlaxonCow]

I don't know how it's playing out in the press, as I don't bother reading that shit, but I feel Labour is definitely doing the better job, from what I've seen on TV and the Internet, in the campaign so far.

Boris just seems to be wandering around the country, wearing a high viz jacket, being unconvincing. And then being contradicted in his claims by his own chancellor. Then they're pulling some really dodgy underhand tactics with changing their Twitter to pretend to be an independent fact checker, and posting up a website to mock the Labour manifesto (which just seems childish, and doesn't really address what's in the manifesto directly - so there's not even a hint of genuine policy discussion under the childish insults. I feel you are allowed to be mocking, as long as you're actually addressing the actual issues, but they're not).

The Tories are coming across really badly, thus far, whereas I think Corbyn's really managed to get policies across - hey, I'm criticising "free broadband", it's true, but I can't fault that it's been a genius move for getting people talking about Labour policies - and I think they're definitely, so far, waging the better campaign, without question.

Of course, there's still plenty of time left for Labour to go tits up and the Tories to potentially land a few blinders.

But, so far, I feel Boris has been doing a piss poor job and if the Tories are in the lead, it's solely 100% down to the "get Brexit done" message in an election that's overshadowed by Brexit.

It's not because the Tories are doing a good job in their campaigning, nor Boris has been at all convincing or done that good a job of getting his message across.

[Dio]

It's a repeat of May's campaign. There's a lot of Groundhog Day in this, Boris is proving pretty much as awful as she was. But at best, it has about the same results: a hung parliament.

It's mind-fuckingly crazy that Labour regarded last time as a success. "Hey, we were predicted to get 220 seats and we got 270 - against the most incompetent Tories since... maybe ever... yay?"

[(o)(o)]

[Dio]

There's a reason we're there currently, though. The natural mood of the British people has always tended to be closer to the US when it comes to level of government tax and services than to Scandinavia. So he is playing a high risk strategy, especially trying to get there in one go.

[merman]

There's a reason we're there currently, though. The natural mood of the British people has always tended to be closer to the US when it comes to level of government tax and services than to Scandinavia. So he is playing a high risk strategy, especially trying to get there in one go.

More the Tory instinct to cut the "size of the State" in terms of Government spending, and nine years of pointless "austerity".

That level of spending has left us with education in our schools getting worse as millions is wasting on Academy schools, the worst ever waiting times in NHS hospitals and over 100,000 clinical vacancies, a police service that cannot cope and a fire service stretched to the limit.

We need more spending to repair the damage.

[KlaxonCow]

So he is playing a high risk strategy, especially trying to get there in one go.

Which was what I was trying to get at earlier.

There are limits to how far you can push things. How many things people can keep in their heads. How much Parliamentary time it'll just pragmatically take to get all this through - even without considering that if it's a hung Parliament and the cooperation of other parties are required, that could easily extend things in the direction of "never". How high you can realistically push taxation, and how many projects you can actually divide that money up between.

Be as idealistic as you like, but there are limits because we live in a finite universe.

Even where he's being good and right, I agree that trying to get there all in one go itself threatens to undermine getting there at all.

It also psychologically backfires, I feel. In that if I see a leader who's keen to do rapidly bring in 376 new policies within 2 weeks, then I feel I'm looking at a leader who reckons he's not going to be sticking around too long. Why the panicked rush? Because you're worried that, if you don't try to get the whole lot done in one go, then you're out on your arse and won't get the chance to do it ever again? It gives off an air of desperation.

Even if that's not actually true, that's what it feels like and that will affect people's votes, if they feel the leader themselves doesn't really think they're going to be sticking around too long that they're rushing everything through.

(This has always been a criticism with smaller third parties too. That, as they don't really believe they're ever going to genuinely get into power, they start promising a billion "feel good" things and fuck the costings, as it's never going to happen anyway. And then, when the Lib Dems got into the coalition, it's "oh, fuck. We promised shit that we can't actually do - particularly with the Tories in tow, who'll never allow it anyway - and now no-one trusts a single word we said". It can pay to be focused, get the message across that you're going to get the major shit fixed pronto - this, this and this, not a million random policies that no-one'll remember anyway - and then give off the distinct impression that you're committed and dedicated to the cause of getting shit that needs to be fixed, fixed. I don't think ANY of the leaders here are remotely doing this.)

[Harlequin]

Here it is.
https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/upload ... o-2019.pdf

I had a look at the section before the Brexit one. I do agree that I would like a way to be found to take the money out of politics, not just by the likes of "banning donations from … tax evaders" (however that is supposed to be achieved) but looking into party funding more generally, especially in regard to campaign and other PR funds. Other bits seem a little odd though, such as "A Labour government will repeal the
Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011, which has stifled democracy and propped up weak governments." How has it done that? No Government has stuck to the fixed term since the end of the coalition under which it was passed, with five ministries and at least three Prime Ministers over three general elections in the subsequent five years that should have been a single term. Indeed, Corbyn himself used the FTPA to repeatedly frustrate the BJ's desire for an earlier general election.

That level of spending has left us with education in our schools getting worse as millions is wasting on Academy schools, the worst ever waiting times in NHS hospitals and over 100,000 clinical vacancies, a police service that cannot cope and a fire service stretched to the limit.

Local services have also been severely cut, especially in Labour-controlled areas. My own council, Camden, is apparently spending 32% less than before the coalition.

[(o)(o)]

Here it is.
https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/upload ... o-2019.pdf

I had a look at the section before the Brexit one. I do agree that I would like a way to be found to take the money out of politics, not just by the likes of "banning donations from … tax evaders" (however that is supposed to be achieved) but looking into party funding more generally, especially in regard to campaign and other PR funds. Other bits seem a little odd though, such as "A Labour government will repeal the
Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011, which has stifled democracy and propped up weak governments." How has it done that? No Government has stuck to the fixed term since the end of the coalition under which it was passed, with five ministries and at least three Prime Ministers over three general elections in the subsequent five years that should have been a single term. Indeed, Corbyn himself used the FTPA to repeatedly frustrate the BJ's desire for an earlier general election.

I appreciate you actually read the manifesto. If only more people did that.

About the Fixed Term Act, I've never personally agreed with it, and I think both Labour and Tories oppose it on democratic grounds it removed the ability to dissolve parliament and led to cynical strategies like proroguing parliament, but somebody more knowledge can answer to that.

What I do know is Labour's strategy wsa to get No Deal off the table and let the Tories hang themselves. Which is why they denied Johnson a General Election. He would have tanked as the weeks went on and on with more scrutiny and more failures and more exposés. We can thank Jo Swinson, for singlehandedly triggering this election.

But don't be downbeat. Remember this?

"Election poll latest: Theresa May will win biggest Tory landslide since Thatcher, final survey predicts"

Here are the 10, 12 and 13 point Tory lead polls.

FROM THE DAY OF THE 2017 ELECTION

ComRes
Tories 44%
Labour 34%
LibDem 9%
UKIP 5%

BMG
Tories 46%
Labour 33%
LibDem 8%
UKIP 5%

ICM Guardian
Tories 46%
Labour 34%
LibDem 7%
UKIP 5%

[tufty]

Regardless of how many Corbyns you can make dance on the head of a pin, the only party likely to be able to command a majority are the conservatives. They probably won't get one, but they are the only ones able to do so.

[DutchLlama]

Regardless of how many Corbyns you can make dance on the head of a pin, the only party likely to be able to command a majority are the conservatives. They probably won't get one, but they are the only ones able to do so.

He should have a platform based on taxing the rich and become the Bernie Sanders of the UK. Make all the fuckers who earn 100k or more pay very high taxes. Of course MPs excluded or they won't vote for it.

[Dio]

That is, very approximately, the plan.

[tufty]

Making the rich pay very high taxes isn't what's needed. They won't pay them, because they will find a way around it.

What's needed is to ensure that everyone pays the tax they owe. That means closing down tax avoidance loopholes, and above all, tax evasion needs to stop being treated as a victimless crime. And while I don't think we need to up tax brackets for the rich, the damages in case of evading tax need to become truly punitive, on an individual and corporate level.

That's not the future the Conservatives have planned, unfortunately.

[Dio]

I do think we need a wealth tax of some kind, to reduce the accumulation of excessive amounts of money in the hands of individuals. Maybe start at 0.5% per annum on wealth over £5m, rising to 1-2% pa on wealth over £50m, and truly only hit the 'super-rich' (and, very likely, less than they can "earn" in interest). Levy it on everyone who's either a UK resident or a British Citizen, maybe at half rate if you're only one or the other. Nobody needs a billion dollars, let's redistribute some of it.

But, as you say, without a dramatic change in tax principles it would largely be avoided the hell out of.

[Cloudane]

Labour's plan is indeed higher income tax for the 5% earning over £80k and to crack down hard on corporate tax evasion.

Unfortunately they won't get in as the notion that socialism=communism and Corbyn=Stalin has well and truly fixated itself in the typical British mind along with all the lies spread by the media and right wing internet trolls. I was just recently WTF'ing in another forum at a guy who had somehow managed to Chinese Whisper the actual plan of "more income tax for individuals earning over £80k" into his own wildly different version of reality "4x council tax for households with gross income of £50k". People read this shit (rather than the actual manifesto), actually believe it, think "heck that's us as we're an ordinary hardworking family" and stick a cross in the Tory box.