Being killed by bullets not yet at the rim?

XBLA and PC.
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gilesgoat
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Post by gilesgoat »

Shakey wrote:
gilesgoat wrote:When I'll see your game finished I'll do my best to find all the defects I can find about it and complain loud about them :wink:
People have paid money to play your game, don't take that shitty attitude because matt's found what looks to be a bug, especially when other people agree with him.

"How can you possibly criticise the new Crowded House record? You've never even learnt to play a musical instrument!"
Do me a favour, go and buy and play something else then.

I am not even talking with you.
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Post by TwistedScrote »

8O


Um.... that's pretty unfair, I can't believe I've just read that.



For someone to spot a POTENTIAL bug.... and be attacked for that is totally wrong.

By your rationale, I cannot have an opinion on film,music,books etc because I can't play a volin, write a book or because I'm not Steven Spielberg.
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Post by Yak »

FFS. Just stop.

I'm staying out of this section for the forseeable future.
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Post by choddo »

Hmm, I reckon it took me about 4 or 5 games to get used to the fact that you have a player "sprite" which is quite bulky and almost amorphous. And that the bullets are pretty bloody lethal. It's not a pixel manouvering game like Ikaruga or Gradius V. It's far more vibrant and carnage-ridden. And you have to learn to aim the hoof shots, at which point you'd have swept that bullet away without even thinking about it.

Aside from that, you can see the gap between the giraffe's hoof bullets is larger than the gap from bullet to rim in that middle - 3rd to dead(?) frame so you were clearly likely to end up dead. You just risked too much.
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Post by Shakey »

gilesgoat wrote:
Shakey wrote:
gilesgoat wrote:When I'll see your game finished I'll do my best to find all the defects I can find about it and complain loud about them :wink:
People have paid money to play your game, don't take that shitty attitude because matt's found what looks to be a bug, especially when other people agree with him.

"How can you possibly criticise the new Crowded House record? You've never even learnt to play a musical instrument!"
Do me a favour, go and buy and play something else then.

I am not even talking with you.
Oh, you! I have actually bought your game, and quite enjoy it.

However your customer-facing staff are fucking rude, and I shan't be purchasing anything from your company again.
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Post by Shakey »

By the way it's an honour to be posting on the same forum as the legendary Jeff Minter.
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Post by rockwaldo »

Shakey wrote:
gilesgoat wrote:
Shakey wrote:
gilesgoat wrote:When I'll see your game finished I'll do my best to find all the defects I can find about it and complain loud about them :wink:
People have paid money to play your game, don't take that shitty attitude because matt's found what looks to be a bug, especially when other people agree with him.

"How can you possibly criticise the new Crowded House record? You've never even learnt to play a musical instrument!"
Do me a favour, go and buy and play something else then.

I am not even talking with you.
Oh, you! I have actually bought your game, and quite enjoy it.

However your customer-facing staff are fucking rude, and I shan't be purchasing anything from your company again.
That's the problem, they dont have any customer facing staff.

To be fair, because of that, I wouldn't be so quick to judge as these guys take their work extremely personally. Unless your aim is to get the riled up of course.
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Post by Yak »

ok, I think the thing here is that basically we have done our level best over the last year and a half to provide something that we think is a good deal for the end user. We've done that at considerable risk to ourselves, gone out on a limb, had no income during the process, and at the end of it delivered something that in terms of Llamasoft releases is simultaneously the most effortful (having taken over a year of two people's fulltime work) and the *cheapest* (costing less than anything we've sold since 1982).

On top of all that we've had the controversy, with clueless fuckers kicking us in the nuts before we've even launched and people swearing *blind* that we're just being wilfully obscure and that what we consider to be valid experimentation is in fact self indulgent wankery.

I know that's not true, but if i try and defend myself I get castigated for "not being able to take criticism" or whatever. I know loads of people actually like what we've done but there are others who just try to say that's not valid and all those people are for some reason just wanting to tell us what we want to hear as opposed to what is true.

And then there are people trying to exploit the damn thing, people complaining because something doesn't work how they want it to, people complaining because they are the customer and always right and demand a certain response for their £3.50, and good goat I can't take it any more. I really can't. I need to absolutely disconnect from Space Giraffe. I love it to bits and I will enjoy playing it but I can't bear being emotionally invested in it any more. Now I want to try and look forward to the next thing and to be brutally honest I am not even sure at this point I want the next thing to even be another game. Maybe I should just focus on the lightsynths, there doesn't seem to be the same level of vitriol involved in those.

I'm tired, tired of the goddamn Rev, tired of those who call me somehow evil for giving a shit, tired of the act of giving a shit itself, tired of waking up and feeling anxious and upset, tired of everything at this point.

I'll still be around, but I won't be talking about SG, about the design of SG, or the critical response to SG, or anything else related to it.

Whatever happens now you've had your £3.50s worth. I'm sorry. For my health's sake I need to look elsewhere now.
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Post by TwistedScrote »

Aye.... well said Rocky, and for what it's worth, disregard my whining a few posts back.


Tired and trapped nerve in back do not a happy scrotey make.


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Post by The Captain »

Dear Yak and Giles,

Have a rest and a break and a disconnect as you have suggested. There is often far less malice in what people are saying than how you interpret it. But I understand entirely that artistic reaction; if you weren't so passionate Space Giraffe wouldn't be Llamasoft's best game, and one of the best games of all time as it is now.

This issue with the bullet collision detection appears to be part of the game design, but I can understand someone being nonplussed by it until they adapt. This is something you have designed beautifully, and grows in reward over time, but the shock of enlightenment does not often come easily.

You are out on the edge, and you want people to understand. And most do. Some want to and don't and need a leg up, others will just never give a fuck. Don't let this get to you, but don't spurn the people like Matt who really like you and are hugely friendly, but need a bit of explaining.

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Post by Jamie »

gilesgoat wrote:
Shakey wrote:
gilesgoat wrote:When I'll see your game finished I'll do my best to find all the defects I can find about it and complain loud about them :wink:
People have paid money to play your game, don't take that shitty attitude because matt's found what looks to be a bug, especially when other people agree with him.

"How can you possibly criticise the new Crowded House record? You've never even learnt to play a musical instrument!"
Do me a favour, go and buy and play something else then.

I am not even talking with you.
8O :cry: I'm so shocked by that statement its untrue.

There is absolutely no malice or ill intent whatsoever in your fans and customers giving you genuine feedback on your game. The last thing i'd ever want to do by writing anything about SG is to make either of you feel bad or upset in anyway at all. I know how much hard work its been, how much emotional input both of you have invested in it but please don't treat us like arseholes for mentioning stuff thats noticed. I've bought everything Llamasoft has made since 1983, i've got the utmost respect for you as people and what you create but I just don't understand the point blank refusal to discuss issues without long posts about never making games again and being fed up with people giving valuable feedback, its like being at school again.

This particular thread as an example is easily answered, either the giraffe's head extends below the rim which is why it explodes which is fair enough or yes there's a problem because its as clear as day to anyone watching that video that the bullet is nowhere near the rim when the giraffe explodes. There's no need to tell people not to buy your stuff anymore or to make long posts about disconnecting from SG, we're not arseholes out to hurt you, we're just telling you what we think. After all, the game was made for people to buy and play wasn't it?

I love the game, its the best thing you've ever made and it would be a massive loss if you didn't carry on making them, I mean that from the bottom of my heart but please talk to us without the defensive shields up to maximum.
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Post by Jamesac »

Yak wrote: I'll still be around, but I won't be talking about SG, about the design of SG, or the critical response to SG, or anything else related to it.
Good idea, but I'd also recommend kicking those vacation plans into overdrive. Sooner = better.

Go have fun somewhere, you both deserve and need it. :)

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Post by RiK »

Jamie wrote:
gilesgoat wrote:
Shakey wrote:
gilesgoat wrote:When I'll see your game finished I'll do my best to find all the defects I can find about it and complain loud about them :wink:
People have paid money to play your game, don't take that shitty attitude because matt's found what looks to be a bug, especially when other people agree with him.

"How can you possibly criticise the new Crowded House record? You've never even learnt to play a musical instrument!"
Do me a favour, go and buy and play something else then.

I am not even talking with you.
8O :cry: I'm so shocked by that statement its untrue.

There is absolutely no malice or ill intent whatsoever in your fans and customers giving you genuine feedback on your game. The last thing i'd ever want to do by writing anything about SG is to make either of you feel bad or upset in anyway at all. I know how much hard work its been, how much emotional input both of you have invested in it but please don't treat us like arseholes for mentioning stuff thats noticed. I've bought everything Llamasoft has made since 1983, i've got the utmost respect for you as people and what you create but I just don't understand the point blank refusal to discuss issues without long posts about never making games again and being fed up with people giving valuable feedback, its like being at school again.

This particular thread as an example is easily answered, either the giraffe's head extends below the rim which is why it explodes which is fair enough or yes there's a problem because its as clear as day to anyone watching that video that the bullet is nowhere near the rim when the giraffe explodes. There's no need to tell people not to buy your stuff anymore or to make long posts about disconnecting from SG, we're not arseholes out to hurt you, we're just telling you what we think. After all, the game was made for people to buy and play wasn't it?

I love the game, its the best thing you've ever made and it would be a massive loss if you didn't carry on making them, I mean that from the bottom of my heart but please talk to us without the defensive shields up to maximum.
If you knew just what the guys have gone through to get SG out the door then perhaps you would better understand why their responses are so emotionally charged.

Not only have Jeff and Giles put all their efforts into SG for the best part of 18 months, they have done that entirely self-funded, receiving zero income and living off their savings. Quite literally taking an enormous risk and banking everything on SG putting Llamasoft firmly back on the map.

Then, they get to the stage of finally getting it out the door when they should be able to kick back and enjoy the launch, finally start seeing the fruits of their labours and take a break but they are facing criticism, much of which seems unfair and some of it downright rude over the game which they have literally put *everything* they had to give emotionally into creating. That must feel like a complete kick in the nads.

People have been talking about little bugs and glitches as if they think it's just a five minute fix and they wonder why Jeff and Giles get so upset about it, yet the people who make the comments didn't see the stress ( and I mean that in the real physical illness ) way that the guys have gone through just to get it this far. When you commit yourselves so completely to something that creates a huge emotional attachment and in such a small team there's nobody else to shift that on to.

Do you realise that to put something through certification process costs many thousands of pounds of the developers money? Do the maths, we all know how much an XBLA game costs, you can all figure that M$ get a cut too, so imagine the effect it would have if you had to go through all that process again and fund it out of your own pocket?

It's easy to be a critic from behind a keyboard, but please, try to put yourself in Jeff and Giles position for just a few minutes...
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Post by disciple »

Yeah I think we all completely understand, we all know what a long road this has been for Yak & Giles; and when that jump bug cropped up, christ I think all our hearts really went out to Yak & Giles there.

But y'know Matt's is a very relevant question and of all the places on the net this *should* be where we are able to discuss such issues. It's just a shame objective discussion can't be had, I think people are starting to come to the conclusion that it's better not to say anything at all now, which is a shame.
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Post by RiK »

disciple wrote:Yeah I think we all completely understand, we all know what a long road this has been for Yak & Giles; and when that jump bug cropped up, christ I think all our hearts really went out to Yak & Giles there.

But y'know Matt's is a very relevant question and of all the places on the net this *should* be where we are able to discuss such issues. It's just a shame objective discussion can't be had, I think people are starting to come to the conclusion that it's better not to say anything at all now, which is a shame.
Please don't think I was being critical of Matt's observation, indeed I've seen the same thing myself and it caught me out too. Thankfully after a few hours play my brain seems to have calibrated itself ok and now I'm not really finding it a problem at all. Well, I've managed to score 100 million so far without too much trouble.

Just wanted to add a little insight into just why Jeff and Giles have reacted as they have is all.
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