EU referendum are you in or out

[Dio]

It's not good. But it's a lot better than the situation in the US where the institutional racism is ingrained and implicit, and where even if the actual racism didn't exist the very attitude of the country towards people (screw everyone but me, they can sort themselves out) is unintentionally extraordinarily racist... although that's part of our problem too, at least when the small-government types get involved, at least our starting point is a shitload fairer than the States.

[KlaxonCow]

Just thinking, the migration thing is all pretty much a red herring, isn't it?

Because "the Muslims" that all these racists are worried about are not coming from the EU. They're coming from Pakistan.

Which has nothing to do with the EU and everything to do with India / Pakistan being in the Commonwealth and "former colonies" of the British Empire and so forth.

I don't know what it's like where y'all live - I guess if you're in London then you pretty much see all nationalities - but I rarely to never see migrants from France or Germany or Sweden or any EU country around the place ordinarily.

Indeed, the only EU migrant I can think of nearby is that an Italian family owns a local cafe (which is surely a good thing, as Italians know how to cook and make coffee). Otherwise, the kebab place is run by Turks and Iranians - not EU - and the Indian is run by Indians (unsurprisingly) - not EU - and the Chinese is run by a Chinese family - not EU. The corner shop is run by an Indian family. My next door neighbour is a Muslim from Pakistan. Nice and cheery fellow. Very friendly and causes no bother.

Basically, go through the list in your head and tell me, is your experience similar to mine that most, if not all, of the migrants you most often see are, in fact, all from non-EU countries, so leaving the EU has really got absolutely fuck all to do with anything?

Indeed, that it's actually more of a Commonwealth thing, in fact. Which, ironically enough, is the rose-tinted "glory days" that many Brexiters are imagining will magically re-appear upon Brexit.

Except, of course, they won't because, one, the world doesn't remotely work like that anymore (which was a large part of the reason why the UK joined the EU in the first place, because we were "the sick man of Europe" and failing miserably. The UK applied to join the EU three times. We were that desperate) and, two, even if it did, then it shouldn't, because Empire is shitty master / slave bullshit that the world shouldn't ever aspire to bring back.

[tufty]

But can you not feel the oppressive yoke of EU regulation around your neck?

[k345y]

I wonder how many that vote leave get upset when they find restrictions on their summer hols to Spain, Portugal etc.
Watching a bunch of thickoid thug England fans on the news the other night shouting their odds about leaving (as that's patriotic) whilst they were enjoying free movement in France FFS!

[zip accident]

Round here a minimal majority of the immigrants seem to be from the EU. A few years ago I was as amused as the Polish supermarket doorman was puzzled when a drunk? xenophobe told him to go back to Portugal.

[k345y]

We have a family of Pakistanis in our street.
Next thing you know they'll be fucking everywhere!



According to my neighbour.

[Darkflame]

The EU looks set to implement new laws to reduce tax avoidance;
http://www.wsj.com/articles/eu-finance- ... 1466177087

From a quick look the new rules seem pretty good. But...umm...if the uk leaves does that mean the UK will become a tax haven?

[k345y]

It practically is already.

[Space Cowboy]

A friend of mine on Facebook posted something I felt pretty much sums up the choice being offered;

For those of you undecided on the EU referendum i have a quick guide for you.

1) To vote to leave (like me) you will be voting for the tax dodging corrupt money grabbing self serving Government of rich people who have no concept of what normal working people do who we voted for and can vote out every 5 years.

2) To vote remain you will be voting for the tax dodging corrupt money grabbing self serving Government of rich people who have no concept of what normal working people do who you DIDN'T vote for and cannot vote out ever."

[gravy]

You're getting this confused with the general election.

The government is made up from MPs and ministers and a sizeable amount of them are pro Brexit

[venusian]

The usual tired, trite, brexit crap

[PumaG]

I wonder how many that vote leave get upset when they find restrictions on their summer hols to Spain, Portugal etc.
Watching a bunch of thickoid thug England fans on the news the other night shouting their odds about leaving (as that's patriotic) whilst they were enjoying free movement in France[
FFS!

There are plenty of thickoids going to Turkey.
I doubt Spain would make the application forms too complicated. If they did, then that's a bonus for Brits who've avoided Spain up until now, due to their thick countrymen's behaviour.
'VOTE LEAVE, ENJOY EUROPE WITHOUT THICK ENGLISH LOUTS'

Russians didn't face any travel restrictions except standard visa applications. Their 'thicko's only received 2 year bans from France, whilst they were being deported . iirc the worst of the english have lifetime travel bans.

Then again

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... imir-putin

[pogo]

I doubt Spain would make the application forms too complicated. If they did, then that's a bonus for Brits who've avoided Spain due to their thick countrymen's behaviour.

It won’t be up to Spain. Post Brexit the EU will take charge of negotiations and not allow individual EU members to cut their own deals. The only deal on offer will be like the one Norway and Switzerland have signed up to, which includes free movement of people. So if we sign that (and it will be overwhelmingly within our interests to do so, to retain access to EU markets) then not much changes, except we will be outside the EU so no longer have any say in how it’s run.

But if post Brexit the British negotiators insist on stopping EU migration then the EU will do the same for British migration. This will be done EU-wide, particularly as the Schengen zone has pooled visas already – if you have a visa for one of the countries you have one for all of them. Anyone wanting to go to Spain will need a visa, which will limit them to a few weeks or months and stop them working.

The only way to stay permanently would be to get residence, which might require gaining citizenship. This varies from country to country, but is often an expensive, time consuming and stressful process, with requirements such as income or language requirements.

[KlaxonCow]

I don't entirely get this "who you didn't vote for" thing with the EU.

I mean, I distinctly remember voting for my local MEP on multiple occasions at the polling booth.

My chief criticism would rather be that, as no-one seems to give much of a shit about the European elections, there's really no useful information provided beforehand about who these candidates are and what their policies might be. They don't bother actively campaigning and actually trying to field my vote, but rather, I guess, just depend on party recognition that a Labour voter will tick the Labour box or UKIP protest voter will tick the UKIP box or something.

Now, I know what you're thinking. The MEPs don't actually draft the EU legislation directly, which is actually put together by the EU "technocrats", and all they do is vote for or against things.

But, umm, you do know that's exactly how Westminster also works, right? Draft bills are actually formulated by unelected civil servants, before it goes to Parliament to be voted on.

Because, basically, this is the same in all governments. They get the "experts" - lawyers and the like - to actually write up the laws, because they need to be legally sound and all the fine details need to be covered, so you need folks who're very much au fait with the subject at hand.

This job is always done by civil servants.

Intrinsically unelected because the whole point is that they're there for their expertise in these matters, not because they won a public popularity contest (which contains absolutely zero safeguards against lack of qualification so, in effect, MPs must be generally considered unqualified - and it's just a happy coincidence that, sometimes, they used to be an economist or a teacher and, thus, actually know what the fuck they're talking about).

The EU could be criticised for being "more of the same" - do we need multiple layers of this nonsense, when the first layer of Westminster was already bad enough? - but not that, in principle, it's any worse nor any different.

In other words, this is really more a criticism - that I wouldn't greatly dispute - of the failings of representative democracy, as opposed to a more direct democracy, but that's an altogether different argument of political philosophy.

Indeed, as they use proportional representation, my vote actually amounts to more influence in the EU elections than it does in the Westminster ones (which, yes, ironically enough, is why UKIP does so well in them).

It's really quite bizarre, in fact, to see Nigel Farage make these arguments.

He's an elected MEP. He never shows up and does anything except moan loudly, mind you, but he was elected in the European elections, yet was not elected in the Westminster elections - remember? He said he was going to stand down if he lost in the General Election, then changed his mind a few hours later because he never expected he'd have to keep his "I'll eat my hat if I lose" promises to the electorate - and, thus, is not an MP.

[gravy]

Fuck it, posting this. Again



"Bloody hugenots"