EU referendum are you in or out

[(o)(o)]

I think a better way to put it would be to ask what benefits have so far arisen from the decision to leave?

That's the funny bit. The UK hasn't left the EU yet, nothing has actually changed. The EU might not leave if no one in power has the will to go through with the democratically made decision. It will take years to see how things pan out.
All the political and media fallout is just childish tantrum throwing.

Well the PM resigned and a Labour coup, so there's a political power vacuum and General Election likely. Markets collapsed, BoE injecting money, lot's of business transactions and decisions affected. Other effects are felt especially those travelling eg I have a friend travelling to Croatia this week their banks have signs out saying they won't accept our currency. So, plenty happening, not least the change of mood and temperament on the streets of Britain.

[Harlequin]

The population of this country is not inherently racist, but it does on the whole tend to have an inferiority complex which manifests as the opposite, and some misguided notion that 'we' are different to 'them' in some fundamental but unknowable way which isn't true of other comparable nations. All of which feeds into the actual racists, given a framework for making their points under a veil of respectability by a referendum like this.

And while they are a minority, they're a much bigger one than any colour, sexuality or nationality you could find on these islands. They don't need anything but 'have your say' culture and a significant point in time in order to grant themselves carte blanche to act the cunt. And they certainly weren't interested in a word the remain campaign had to say.

I do not think this is a particularly British phenomenon. Indeed, I think we are currently seeing some signs of it in the U.S.. In the wake of recession, many of those who feel disenfranchised and economically disadvantaged appear to be easily led to let fear overwhelm their rationality then be inflamed to blame Others around them rather than the people elected to run their countries. We've been seeing this pattern since at least the early 1930s. It seems to be the Leave campaign which has mostly employed this tactic over the past few weeks.

[gravy]

It's actually the leavers not giving a flying fuck about the obvious consequences of voting out.

It's only a small percentage that are racist but 100% of the leave votes judged their issue with Europe to be more important than triggering the kind of inevitable shit we're seeing post vote.

It's a bit iffy allowing one's self to be pressed into voting a specific way for fear of a violent outcome, isn't it?

What about voting a specific way because you have empathy for the people who's life could be ruined if you didn't?

[gumboot]

Well I don't know. What if I threatened to kill one kitten for every stay vote? Would that make voting 'leave' right?


[edit] am I too late to change my example? I only just remembered how "kill a kitten" earned currency.

[gravy]

Society is a balance of rights and responsibilities. People are more than free to make their decision but it's also fair to draw conclusions from that choice.

A trade has been made for abstract concepts that won't manifest as concrete change (Taking our country back!!!!) for actual damage to the economy and society.

They got their country back, it just involved doing a dirty big shit all over it first.

As for the kitten thing? A better comparison would be to second amendment defenders; for the majority it's about hunting or self defence ignoring that it's also a mechanism for psychopaths to get easy access to military hardware.

"I'm alright jack" You support that too?

[gravy]

Letter in the The Times today

[gilesgoat]

Letter in the The Times today

It has a definition Moral hazard

Moral hazard occurs when one person takes more risks because someone else bears the cost of those risks.

Moral hazard occurs under a type of information asymmetry where the risk-taking party to a transaction knows more about its intentions than the party paying the consequences of the risk. More broadly, moral hazard occurs when the party with more information about its actions or intentions has a tendency or incentive to behave inappropriately from the perspective of the party with less information.

Moral hazard also arises in a principal–agent problem, where one party, called an agent, acts on behalf of another party, called the principal. The agent usually has more information about his or her actions or intentions than the principal does, because the principal usually cannot completely monitor the agent. The agent may have an incentive to act inappropriately (from the viewpoint of the principal) if the interests of the agent and the principal are not aligned.

Politics is one of those "fantastic jobs" where you can do/promise/say all the shit you want and nearly have no consequences ... ( i.e. your well being is almost guaranteed no matter what ) .

[Darkflame]

I think holding politicians accountable is something we can all get behind.

Cant fully hold them accountable for cause and effect, given how complex the world is. But certainly for promises and data we could.
Their jobs should very much by on the line, and possibly sums of money, if they make provably false statements.

Now, obviously, this would lead to even more weasel-wordiness, but thats still a improvement in my book. Better to have explicit vagueness rather then lies.

[Cloudane]

Yep. The classic "350m per week for the NHS" being the most bold-faced lie, considering it was admitted to be a lie"mistake" mere hours after the result. There's no way it can be spun otherwise, it was lying to get votes, pure and simple
They could try and spin it as "we said let's, it was a suggestion" all they like but I think a court would see through that.

[Little stoned kiwi]

Given how they have a lot in common with used-car/insurance/door-to-door salesmen and real estate agents, perhaps there needs to be similar laws to protect consumers. So you can demand your vote back if it didn't get you what you were told you were buying with it.

[snaff]

You don't need abstract reasons to leave. For instance, the ECB is printing money right now.

[gilesgoat]

Yep. The classic "350m per week for the NHS" being the most bold-faced lie, considering it was admitted to be a lie"mistake" mere hours after the result. There's no way it can be spun otherwise, it was lying to get votes, pure and simple
They could try and spin it as "we said let's, it was a suggestion" all they like but I think a court would see through that.

If that would have been an ad for a product, you'd be liable of "false advertising" and would cost you gazillions in fine.

If they would have said "yes" and months later claim that for some reasons they could not really do it would have been "lightly more believable" at least they could have said "we tried but it did not go".

But by saying it like this, they basically self-exposed "it was a fraud", if that would be another contract/thing, given the circumstances and say that "lot of people probably voted on the basis of that" this would be sufficient ground to NIL the whole referendum.

I think that's "one of the most incredible cases" of blatantly lying to the public.

[gravy]

You don't need abstract reasons to leave. For instance, the ECB is printing money right now.

If you're worried about that we've just had to commit to printing up to £250bn more to cover the fallout from this terrible decision

But out of interest how did the ECB's monetary policy affect you today? Did it make your cornflakes taste terrible?

[Cloudane]

If they would have said "yes" and months later claim that for some reasons they could not really do it would have been "lightly more believable" at least they could have said "we tried but it did not go".

I.e. pretty much what Nick Clegg did re: tuition fees, and apologised. And it played a big part in the huge collapse in support for the lib Dems. Certainly puts that into perspective! Though the reaction to this one feels a bit more along the lines of "oh well. Um... blame immigrants! Down with foreigners!" in some camps (#NotAllBrexiters)

[Little stoned kiwi]

Did it make your cornflakes taste terrible?

What, you lot still have cornflakes? The dramatics had led me to believe the UK was in a state of post-economic collapse where even toilet paper is in short supply.