EU referendum are you in or out

Inane baanter or words of wisdom - you decide...
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EU Are you IN or OUT

In
98
77%
Out
21
17%
Undecided (shake it all about)
8
6%
 
Total votes: 127

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gilesgoat
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by gilesgoat »

Politicians seems NOT to have any common sense nowadays ...

This is a positive statement :
" .. says we can be A great nation .. "
This is an idiotic nationalist "little man" statement :
"We'll be the GREATEST nation on Earth"
.. I say .. "they keep making the bad even worse ?" ..

Can somebody remove from the head of ( certain ) people this idea of "being the greatest ..." ..

"You don't have to be the greatest, just be a good man/woman and things will follow" ?

Remember pride is one of the capital sins, temperance is the virtue .. not pride ..
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by Harlequin »

gilesgoat wrote:Politicians seems NOT to have any common sense nowadays ...

This is a positive statement :
" .. says we can be A great nation .. "
This is an idiotic nationalist "little man" statement :
"We'll be the GREATEST nation on Earth"
.. I say .. "they keep making the bad even worse ?" ..
I habitually apply General Semantics and ask myself, "Great at what, exactly?"
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by KlaxonCow »

Harlequin wrote:"Great at what, exactly?"
Although, perhaps the more pertinent question in this age of growing inequality is closer to "great for whom, exactly?".

I mean, listening to many Leave voters who were protest voting against "the Establishment" - though, as I've mentioned, goodness knows why they thought the EU was any kind of useful proxy for what's really the sins of Westminster - it's the question that, in never really being asked nor answered, is a significant chunk of the reason why we have Brexit.

And now that they've voted for it, we must still ask "great for whom, exactly?" because it, unfortunately, certainly won't be them.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by zip accident »

It's a world with about 200 countries in it, one of them has to be best at something. For everything there is to be best at, there has to actually be a best. It may not be meaningful, but it's true.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by gilesgoat »

zip accident wrote:It's a world with about 200 countries in it, one of them has to be best at something. For everything there is to be best at, there has to actually be a best. It may not be meaningful, but it's true.
Don't try to confuse/mix up things .. :wink:

Because this statement " "We'll be the GREATEST nation on Earth" " .. does not mean that and in this day and age and what is already going on / happening in the world last thing you want is some "supernation" claiming to be "the greatest/best in the world" ..

Also "wrong timing" for that sentence with what Tony Blair is currently saying .. ..
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by gilesgoat »

Anyway that is a stupid statement made by a silly politician, now back to real problems what's going to happen next then ? And when ?
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by KlaxonCow »

zip accident wrote:It's a world with about 200 countries in it, one of them has to be best at something. For everything there is to be best at, there has to actually be a best. It may not be meaningful, but it's true.
In a logical abstract sense, sure.

But is doesn't work that way in reality, does it?

For example, Sweden is the best at supporting its poorer citizenry by how it's taking the idea of "basic income" seriously - this is a different approach to welfare / tackling poverty / homelessness / etc. by simply guaranteeing a minimum income for everyone. Like the minimum wage, but not made conditional on being in work, jobseeking, receiving disability payments or anything else. The idea is that, if you're below the minimum income, regardless of the reason why, then you will be given this welfare to reach the minimum income. Think "universal credit" taken to the nth degree.

There you go, that's why that country is the best.

Oh, wait, what's that I hear? Are those the voices of conservatives I hear, freaking out over the concept of paying the poor completely unconditionally?

Or how about the fact the American Department of Defense - the world's largest employer - has a budget larger than the combined defence budgets of every other nation on Earth? So they're the best of the best at maintaining a gargantuan industrial military complex that makes guns and bombs and fighter jets to kill people. Yay! America, fuck yeah!

Because, you see, the other semantical thing about the word "best" is that it's the superlative of "good".

Good -> better (comparative) -> best (superlative).

And if we consider the word "good" - or, indeed, its antonym "bad" too - then, of course, it's fundamentally a judgement call. What's good for the goose ain't necessarily good for the gander too. Though maybe it is. Because the point is that you cannot really use "good" or "bad" in any blanket universal sense.

Some things are good for some people and bad for others. Some things are good at one time, bad at another time. Some things are good in one situation, and disastrously bad in another.

As mentioned, these words are intrinsically always asking the comparative question: "Good... at what?", "best... for whom?", etc..

These words, by their nature, can't be universal. So they must always be being said in a specific context - good at running marathons, best for me personally, etc. - even if, for brevity, that context is left unsaid and considered implicit.

Or, to put it another way, when you say "in a bunch of things, one of those things has to be the best", you're applying conventional logic. But, really, the world actually demands fuzzy logic - relative, comparative logic - as there are no underlying universal values (in both senses of the word) to be measured to make any of it objective.

Or, in other words, though nihilism is not much of a philosophy to live your life by, it is factually correct. God is dead, so get over it.
Last edited by KlaxonCow on Thu Jul 07, 2016 4:15 pm 0, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by Mayhem »

Meow wrote:It will happen. You pea brain. You think they are just going to hope it goes away. what kind of democracy is that. In 2 years Britains out. 51.9 voted to leave and won you can't ignore that.
I direct your attention back to the Irish vote about the EU, and the fact that went to a second referendum.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-ei ... of_Ireland

That's just one example. Perfectly possible to ignore the result, run another referendum (and I think many Leavers are now thinking about changing their mind) and have Remain win. Sparking more protests but I'd much rather see the Leavers try to justify going, than the Remains justify staying. It would just be so much more delicious... and full of hilarity.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by (o)(o) »

gilesgoat wrote:
gravy wrote:And the £ is even more fucked today!

Thanks brexiteers!
The main problem is that the whole UK, politically speaking, now looks "extremely unstable/volatile" .. actually looks like "no one really knows what they want to do" .. it's like "OK you got it an now ? And .. THERE IS NO 'NOW' " ..

It really looks more and more all this "Brexit" been more a move done "to upset some opposition" more than any real/realistic plan about "What do we do if we win".
Here are two positions on that :

1/ Governments and individual politicians have less power than people assume. Organisational structures present the appearance of order to a point but there is a mathematical tipping point, beyond which chaos enters the system.

2/ Shock Doctrine: "disaster capitalism operates by delivering massive shocks to the system and then using the ensuing period of anarchy, fear and confusion to reassemble the pieces of what it has broken into a new configuration."

See here.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by Darkflame »

gilesgoat wrote:Politicians seems NOT to have any common sense nowadays ...

This is a positive statement :
" .. says we can be A great nation .. "
This is an idiotic nationalist "little man" statement :
"We'll be the GREATEST nation on Earth"
.. I say .. "they keep making the bad even worse ?" ..

Can somebody remove from the head of ( certain ) people this idea of "being the greatest ..." ..

"You don't have to be the greatest, just be a good man/woman and things will follow" ?

Remember pride is one of the capital sins, temperance is the virtue .. not pride ..
I habitually apply General Semantics and ask myself, "Great at what, exactly?"
I think it was Penn and Teller that did a bit on "There is no such thing as best"
ie, there is only "Best at"

It seemed like a pretty good thing to drill into peoples heads, and it especially applies to anything as complex and as multifaceted as a country.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by gumboot »

Harlequin wrote:
gilesgoat wrote:Politicians seems NOT to have any common sense nowadays ...

This is a positive statement :
" .. says we can be A great nation .. "
This is an idiotic nationalist "little man" statement :
"We'll be the GREATEST nation on Earth"
.. I say .. "they keep making the bad even worse ?" ..
I habitually apply General Semantics and ask myself, "Great at what, exactly?"
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by zip accident »

KlaxonCow wrote:
zip accident wrote:It's a world with about 200 countries in it, one of them has to be best at something. For everything there is to be best at, there has to actually be a best. It may not be meaningful, but it's true.
In a logical abstract sense, sure.
That's all I was talking about.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by CableTwitch »

gilesgoat wrote:
"We'll be the GREATEST nation on Earth"
You have to remember, this kind of thing only ever applies to the mind-set of the citizens of whatever country that political statement was made in. I mean, look at the US, and their wonky belief that it's the 'greatest country in the world'. These things don't have to make sense to anyone outside of that culture, and they rarely do. But to get into the heads of those you're representing, and fire them up with ideologies and thoughts that can stir them into action... well, that's kinda what lead to WW2. But it can also serve as a rallying point to recover from losses and fuckups from previous governments and events, so the psychology of it is valid, if applied properly and carefully.

It's difficult to say stuff like this is crap, because you see what you want to see in things like this. Depends where you are at the time, I suppose, which side of the fence/border you are.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by KlaxonCow »

Still, even as a confidence-boosting pep talk, it should surely be phrased as "we could be the greatest nation on Earth"?

That is, we have the capability of doing so, but whether it is done would be down to whether we grasp the nettle or not. Now, that's a real pep talk to fire people up into some action. "Yes, we can".

Whereas "we'll be the greatest nation on Earth" is quite the opposite. It's telling people that being the greatest is an inevitability. "don't worry or bother yourself. This will automatically work out for the best, no matter what". So, you know, why bother making effort or taking action? It's going to happen anyway. Or, at least, that's what the statement effectively promises.

Positivity need not exclude realism. Indeed, it really shouldn't or, as noted, it'll foster complacency, rather than a proactive attitude to strive, aspire and succeed...

...which, ironically enough, is essentially the thing that actually determines whether a nation will be "the best" or not. If it actually does, then it will be, as it's actively making it happen. If it can't be arsed and sits around waiting for the good times to automatically land in its lap, then it won't, as it's not even actively trying, so why should it happen?
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by pogo »

It’s unclear where this is from – the Leave campaign I guess but where/when? – but anyone promising to “make Britain Great” is whether deliberately or not echoing Donald Trump’s slogan “Make America Great Again”, and as such it’s dangerous nonsense.

It’s nonsense as there is never a time when Britain (or America) was greater than now. Some people harken back to before the 1980s, before Thatcher, when we still had an industrial base, a coal industry etc.. But we also had stagflation. Power cuts and the three day week. A joke of a car industry. A sterling crisis which led to the government getting a loan from the IMF.

Socially the UK was a much worse place then. Racism, sexism and homophobia was mainstream and common. Our culture was much poorer, TV in particular. Our cuisine was rightly considered a joke. Economically people were much worse off, poorer with far fewer things to spend money on.

You can argue Britain was great when it had an empire, but that’s even easier to dismiss: it’s long ago that Britain was far worse off by any reasonable metric, and anyway Commonwealth countries are not going to let us rediscover our glorious imperial past.

It’s dangerous (though more so in the US) as the implication of “make us great” is that there’s something stopping us, being great, and the thing that people can point to is migration. No matter that this is nonsensical: the evidence is overwhelmingly that migrants benefit us economically, part of the reason why things are better now than ever before.

But to Leave supporters, migration is up, Britain is not Great, these two things must be related. The danger of this is it is only a short way from that to outright racism, as without a clear argument you just end up blaming migrants.
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