EU referendum are you in or out

[tufty]

It might be long enough ago now to laugh about it.

So, I'm at work yesterday, top of the chairlift, unloading bikes. A lot of bikes. Busiest day of the season, as it turns out.

Bike arrives, english brakes (front brake on the right, as opposed to the rest of europe, which, incidentally, means I get to skin my shin on the pedals) and with a bit of play in the headset, so when the bloke (who is, as they say around here, "of a certain age") owning it arrives, I say to him, in english, "Hello. You might want to tighten up your headset, there's some play. Allen keys are over there" and continue unloading bikes.

Off he toddles, tightens his headset, then comes back and starts talking to me. Bearing in mind that I'm an englishman, living and working in France.

"So, you're English?"
"Yep"
"Been here long?"
"Yep, about 15 years"
"You don't wanna come back. It's gone to shit. I tell you, Britex was the best thing we've ever done. Put the Great back in Britain. Send the niggers home".
"I think we'd better stick to talking about bikes"

[gumboot]

Too soon!

[PFVA]

Taking from the fact that you are living in France the conversation is a kind of funny. He doesn't know France that well does he?

On the Brexit, we are having a feeling here maybe due to the way we are getting the news that the UK is not in a hurry to leave. It's actually the EU that says they don't want to start any talks till the UK signs the papers to leave. It's giving the impression the UK doesn't really want to leave but get a better deal than one that was negociated right before the referendum and that the EU is saying that was the best deal, now if you want to leave, leave and then we will negociate something with you, but with you outside.

[zip accident]

I've maybe picked it up wrong, but I've the impression now that Corbyn actually threw the stay campaign on purpose.

That's the only thing I have against the man, but if it's true, it's a biggie.

[pogo]

He was part of the Labour Remain campaign but did not believe in it. There are many reports of him behind the scenes doing everything he could to disrupt Labour’s campaign, so much so that Labour were largely absent from the debate.

As for why it dates back to when we joined the EU which he opposed. Back then I guess you could be a principled leftist and oppose the EU as it was all about free trade and bringing bracing competition to Britain’s creaking industries. But now? The EU is well to the left of not just this British government but the last Labour one.

[gravy]

He did a shit job of throwing it; Labour voters were overwhelmingly stay.

If you want to put this at the feet of a political party (which isn't entirely fair) it's pretty clear where to look.

[pogo]

Labour voters may have largely voted Remain, but thanks to Brown, Miliband and now Corbyn there are far fewer of them than a decade ago. There are also a lot less Lib Dem supporters. The absence of any credible opposition to the Tories opened the door for UKIP and made a referendum unavoidable.

[merman]

Labour voters may have largely voted Remain, but thanks to Brown, Miliband and now Corbyn there are far fewer of them than a decade ago. There are also a lot less Lib Dem supporters. The absence of any credible opposition to the Tories opened the door for UKIP and made a referendum unavoidable.

No.

The Tories made the referendum unavoidable - by putting it on their manifesto in 2010 and 2015, then passing an Act of Parliament to ensure it happened before 2017.

If you mean the "defeat" was unavoidable, then it wasn't. And it's the Tories - split in half - who failed.

Corbyn WAS active in campaigning. The media did not cover him.

[pogo]

The Tories had no choice, as if they had not held a referendum it would have split the party. This may seem a poor reason, but then you look at Labour who have managed to split the party – even if there is no formal split it’s hard to see how the two factions can reconcile themselves – and so have made themselves unelectable.

As for Corbyn’s part in the campaign, there were many reports the was working against it, even before the campaign started:

Corbyn office 'sabotaged' EU Remain campaign - sources

It was a major factor in the vote of no confidence against him, and the subsequent leadership contest.

[Wudzi]

How on earth you can blame it on Corbyn I have no idea.

Firstly, the right wing of Labour were planning to topple him prior even to the referendum. Hardly a surprise that these labour "sources" are doing anything other than trying to pin the blame on him.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06 ... litz-afte/

That was at a time where Labour were almost neck and neck in the polls having grown support steadily since the election.

The reason the referendum was lost was largely based on the ludicrous claims made by Cameron and Osborne which given public opinion was on a knife edge anyway, backfired. Most people would have no more respect for him sharing a platform with those 2 than BJ/Gove and the lies they also propagated.

However you spin it, the percentage of Labour voters - within 1% of the SNP - Was a substantial vote in favour of remain. Given the attitudes of the older generations in the north, they did well to retain that.

The fault lies purely at Cameron's feet. There was no need for a referendum and he made a miscalculated gamble to sneak a majority at the election which backfired. The Blairites in Labour have been plotting ever since Corbyn's win. If they had any respect for democracy, they would have given him support for this parliament. If it's true he's unelectable, then he would have resigned in 2020. However they are the ones completely responsible for any split which occurs and moreover, have spectacularly failed to hold the tories to account during a period of political turmoil.

Yesterdays story about about one of their MP's shows the respect they have for their members

https://twitter.com/TomBlenkinsop?ref_s ... r%5Eauthor

Absolutely nothing about the government but post after post calling people "Entryists" or "Corbynites". That's typical of the right of Labour where they would rather attack their own members rather than the tories, and blame it all on Corbyn.

[merman]

The Tories had no choice, as if they had not held a referendum it would have split the party. This may seem a poor reason, but then you look at Labour who have managed to split the party – even if there is no formal split it’s hard to see how the two factions can reconcile themselves – and so have made themselves unelectable.

As for Corbyn’s part in the campaign, there were many reports the was working against it, even before the campaign started:

Corbyn office 'sabotaged' EU Remain campaign - sources

It was a major factor in the vote of no confidence against him, and the subsequent leadership contest.

More than 100 Tory MPs want Brexit to stop - doesn't that make the Tories as unelectable?

[pogo]

Definitely the Tories and Cameron are ultimately responsible, and Cameron has fallen on his sword. But Labour played a large part and it would not have happened without them. First by being so ineffectual they allowed both UKIP and the anti-EU fringe within the Conservative party to establish themselves and essentially become the opposition to the government. 2015 was eminently winnable for Labour.

One of the biggest problem for the Remain camp was countering the lies of the Brexit campaign, who exploited record levels of distrust in the press and experts to present their fanciful promises as facts. And this mistrust has been stoked by Corbyn and his supporters, who have presented the press’s negative assessments of Corbyn as due to some right-wing conspiracy. Brexit were happy to seize on this and use it to their advantage, but it started on the left.

Finally there’s the campaign they ran. Even if you think the evidence and reports of a conspiracy are partisan sniping, many noted at the time how late Labour were to start campaigning and how little they did.

Absolutely nothing about the government but post after post calling people "Entryists" or "Corbynites". That's typical of the right of Labour where they would rather attack their own members rather than the tories, and blame it all on Corbyn.

Actually they would rather Labour attack and challenge the Tories, but that is not happening. And the problem is not just on one side or the other. From the left you hear people called Blairites, as if he is still working behind the scenes in the Labour party, or neoliberal. Wren Lewis though demolished that fairly thoroughly only yesterday.

New Labour and neoliberalism

There are no right wingers in Labour any more, if there ever were.

[Wudzi]

Actually they would rather Labour attack and challenge the Tories, but that is not happening.

Yes and who's fault is that? Corbyn picked a shadow cabinet from a broad selection of all parts of the PLP. He's also said that if he wins again, he would do exactly the same.

Throughout his leadership, he's opposed the Tories whilst trying involve the right of the party to do the same. They have plotted against him, briefed against him to the press and concentrated far more on doing this whilst completely ignoring the government.

Reading your posts, he is somehow responsible for this.

[Wudzi]

By the way, can you point to examples of Corbyn directly insulting Labour Party members?

[pogo]

The problem is Corbyn is a bad leader. That’s the fundamental problem, and why the PLP has turned against him. They didn’t initially: they were prepared to give him time, to see if he could turn the enthusiasm of Labour members into national support. If after 2 or 3 years Labour were still trailing in the polls there could be another leadership election, still plenty of time before a 2020 general election.

But he is far worse than anyone imagined. His performance in parliament has been appalling, the first major election results were disastrous (third place in Scotland, even fewer seats in local elections than Ed Miliband), anti-Semitism and sexism flourished under his leadership, and then there was the Remain campaign that never happened.

It does not matter if he says he will work with the PLP if he wins again, he will still be a terrible leader. Labour MPs then have no good options. If they support him they are effectively giving up any hope of getting back into government in 2020. But opposing him is little better, as Labour’s rules make it impossible to unseat him. They can only hope he somehow sees sense, realises Labour can’t win with him in charge, and steps down. But he has shown no sign of doing this. He’s even suggested he could stay on beyond 2020, even if Labour lose badly.

By the way, can you point to examples of Corbyn directly insulting Labour Party members?

Not Corbyn. He’s quite a nice bloke. John Mcdonnell though last month called them “fucking useless”, which is pretty direct.