EU referendum are you in or out

[gravy]

The problem is Corbyn is a bad leader

What do you think of Cameron as a leader?

[pogo]

Much better than Corbyn, though his stint as PM ended in failure. he was leader of the Conservatives for 11 years altogether, and won two elections, which is a pretty decent innings.

It’s not a fair comparison as Corbyn is truly awful. The best, or most frequent, comparison is Michael Foot who led Labour to their worst general election defeat in living memory. But even that is unfair as Foot was a senior, experienced MP who had been in the cabinet. He was also able to maintain the support of most Labour MPs – the Gang of Four broke away to form the SDP but there were only four of them.

[Wudzi]

Not Corbyn. He’s quite a nice bloke. John Mcdonnell though last month called them “fucking useless”, which is pretty direct.

That was the PLP. I'm talking about ordinary Labour Party members.

The examples you cite about poor performance don't ring true either.

Local election permanent was an increase on their General Election performance under Milliband and in fact were inline with the local election performance at Millibands high point in popularity. In elections a year after a General election, it is not reasonable to expect a complete turnaround, but it's clear there was a steady improvement.

The EU performance dispite how often you say was poor, is not reflected in the nearly 2/3 majority of labour members who voted remain.

You also fail to mention the 4 by-elections, each that saw increased labour majorities and the London mayoral election.

Fundementally though, he has shifted Labour Party policy and grown their membership hugely. No labour MP will come out in favour of austerity now, and that's mostly down to his leadership.

It is true that votes were haemorrhaged to UKIP, especially in the north but they've since plunged in the ratings and are pretty pointless now. I cannot see their working class voters flocking to the Tories. This again was largely due to Labour being no longer seen a party that represents them and something that happened before Corbyn's leadership. Moving back to a New Lavour politics is unlikely to win back people who had already abandoned them.

[pogo]

You have a very odd view of Labour’s election performance. They came third in Scotland. You can’t extrapolate anything from by-elections, especially not such a small sample size. And without Boris Johnson there was little chance the Tories could hold solidly Labour London – and that was won more despite Corbyn than because of him.

The local elections though are most interesting, as perhaps most indicative of national performance. Labour lost seats. Not many, but that was the first time a party out of government has lost seats since the early 1980s. It was in particular worse than when these seats were last contested under Miliband, who of course went on to lose badly.

Things have gotten much worse since. Labour have slumped in the polls, and the Tories have opened up a lead of 10% or so, taking votes from both Labour and UKIP. Labour squabbles have not helped, but most of the damage to their polls was done before the Brexit vote and so before the dispute came to a head.

[Ratsoap]

You have to remember that Labour's performance in Scotland has absolutely nothing to do with Corbyn. Jesus Christ could be Labour leader at Wesminster and they'd tank in Scotland just now. Different political landscape altogether. Most of Scottish Labour are Blairites, and don't actually want Corbyn in charge.

[k345y]

Scottish Labour is just as bad and if not worse than National Labour for infighting and that's where they have went wrong.
The worst thing they could have done is exactly what they did do, keeping Kezia (not got a clue) Dugdale in charge as a pretend show of Unity when really she's nothing but a turn off for the traditional Labour voters. She pretends to be a social progressive whilst treating the electorate like idiots thinking popularist shit will win the day with the tax payer picking up the tab. She's so far out of touch the Tartan cunts Tories are second place ffs! Scottish Labour are too stupid to realise they're stronger under the one banner of UK Labour.

SNP have caught the traditional left feeling of social justice with that most traditional of left policies...by not imposing the cost on the very voters that voted for them.

[tufty]

https://soundcloud.com/theiainduncansmi ... es-it-make

[Absolute_Zero]

Here follows a fascinating, if dispiriting, exchange between a singularly encyclopaedic purview of the EU [re trade] and an influential bubble dweller, John Mills, chairman of Labour Leave. Mills' views -and worse- are to be found in both parties and across the civil service. Gawd help us... accidental WTO trading here we come.

http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86194

[PFVA]

Are we going to have a Irexit (or Eirexit) now that the EU is interfering with Ireland's tax policies on Apple?

[pogo]

I doubt it very much. For one although Ireland, at the receiving end of Brussels’s tax judgement, are protesting mightily I imagine they cannot be too unhappy about this outcome. If it is upheld then they get the back tax revenue, and they still got the benefit of Apple basing themselves in Ireland. Apple too are hardly disadvantaged by it as they can easily afford it.

I doubt companies will desert Ireland because of it. It’s still a great place to do business, with low taxes, a well-educated workforce, and none of the backwards employment laws seen elsewhere in the EU. It becomes an even better place if the UK leaves the EU, as the only English speaking and the most Atlanticist part of the EU.

And Ireland could take steps to soften the impact of the judgement. They could e.g. cut their corporate tax rates to make them even more competitive, but collect more than they now do from companies like Apple.

[pogo]

The FT I think sums it up very well.

Ireland's €13bn reverse mugging

It is the least welcome fiscal boost in history. By demanding that Apple hands over €13bn to Ireland, Brussels has metaphorically bundled the Irish government into an alley, while forcibly shoving €50 notes into its pocket.

Ireland has promised to appeal, but this comes with political peril. Bluntly, Dublin will have to pay millions of taxpayer cash to lawyers to argue that the world’s richest company should not hand over €13bn to the Irish government.

All this in a country with recent and not particularly fond memories of brutal austerity. One minister summed it up succinctly in the Irish Times: “There would be no problem in appealing it if it was only a couple of hundred million euros. But €13 billion? Jesus...”

An advantageous tax code was one of the reason's why the likes of Apple, Microsoft, Google and Facebook set up their European operations in the country. Now, 29 of the world's 30 biggest technology companies call Ireland their European home.

This gives Ireland an edge: it is sticky. It has an educated, English-speaking workforce, a timezone more conducive to transatlantic conference calls and regulators used to working with technology groups.

Plus, unlike another rainy island on the north-west of Europe, support for its EU membership runs at a healthy 86 per cent, lessening chance of any geopolitical shock. Silicon Valley won't up sticks to London, Paris or Berlin just yet.

[KlaxonCow]

Not that they are really "upping sticks" anyway.

It's largely just a construction of paper that these corporations are "in Ireland" in the first place.

[Darkflame]

Fuck any any all companies setting up little satellite offices for tax reasons as far as I see. Anything to discourage it.
Go after them all, let the domino's fall and come what may.
And, no Apples reply "we already pay a lot" excuse is pathetic. Yes, you do pay a lot. Because your one of the most successful companies ever.

[Rubisco]

Meh, the reality is that we effectively give a tax break to poorly performing companies based upon their lack of success, and some successful companies use loopholes to also get this tax break. The rotters.

People seem to see taxing profits as being the same as taxing the rich more than we tax the poor. Nonsense. A tycoon's lossmaking vanity project doesn't get taxed, whereas a working class pension fund invested wisely does.

Why struggle against the inevitable loopholes that come with trying to tax profits in a global marketplace just to reward unsuccessful businesses merely for being unsuccessful? Tax businesses some other way.

[Darkflame]

Meh, the reality is that we effectively give a tax break to poorly performing companies based upon their lack of success,

What is this reality you speak of?
Companies get tax breaks for many reasons, but not merely because they don't do well.

This case however is about companies able to essentially arbitrarily pick where they want to pay tax and certainly countries happy to indulge them. That's the fundamental objection here.

People seem to see taxing profits as being the same as taxing the rich more than we tax the poor

If a companies earns more profit they should pay more tax, yes.

just to reward unsuccessful businesses merely for being unsuccessful?

Your rewarding business that can afford and are able to set up tax havens. Your punishingly smaller ones that cant because they have to pay the higher tax.
There is no sane reason why ANY company should have this option, regardless of size.


I am guessing your post is really about some separate issue with some specific companies getting specific tax breaks mind, rather then anything really to do with whats going on here.