Harlequin wrote:I find the original connection to the Enabling Act far more interesting and relevant than the incorrect depiction of the SPD members as judges.
I agree, maybe I should have beeen more emphatic about the translation error to be clearer!
It's also from a propaganda publication not a newspaper. In Britain in 2016 that's pretty much all the DM is.
pogo wrote:BTW, don’t hold out much hope of Labour blocking the vote on Article 50 when it hits parliament. You might have thought after a second leadership election in 12 months Labour might at last be getting its act together and doing what they are paid for as official opposition, opposing the government. No.
Labour have their hands tied. You want people on the streets with pitchforks? Too late, buddy..
This dangerous government has the press barons on it's side and you can't blame Labour for an embittered and gullible public mopping up an onslaught of propaganda and disinformation. It's a government whose actions you have vehemently defended, too.
The Tory government were and ARE the driving force behind this Titanic mess and they are the ones who could put the brakes on it. It was not Labour who put a referendum on the mandate and told the country a pack of lies and then acted like that's alright.
Lol, I seem to recall you strongly supported Corbyn, as the best person for Labour leader. Now, as expected, he is an ineffectual waste of space, and it’s all the press’s fault? You might notice that was from the New Statesman, not owned by any press baron, certainly not fans of this government.
The Tories should not be able to walk this through parliament. The majority for Brexit was very slim; even if it were much higher there is no obligation on MPs to follow public opinion – see e.g. past votes on capital punishment which always went against public opinion. Not only would it be perfectly valid for Labour oppose Brexit it would be good politics. If they became the champions of the 48% who voted to stay, and made a strong case for it, then they could win over many voters turned off by Brexit and the Tory’s handling of it.
pogo wrote:The Tories should not be able to walk this through parliament. The majority for Brexit was very slim; even if it were much higher there is no obligation on MPs to follow public opinion – see e.g. past votes on capital punishment which always went against public opinion. Not only would it be perfectly valid for Labour oppose Brexit it would be good politics.
Why the heck would Labour oppose Brexit? it suits them perfectly, and if it all goes tits up they can avoid the blame. They have nothing to win from opposing Brexit, Brexit is bad for business and for Britain, but they are not the party of business, and their main focus is international.
"My way is the way of not fighting":- the book of Enter the Dragon.
pogo wrote:Lol, I seem to recall you strongly supported Corbyn, as the best person for Labour leader. Now, as expected, he is an ineffectual waste of space, and it’s all the press’s fault? You might notice that was from the New Statesman, not owned by any press baron, certainly not fans of this government.
Yes I endorsed Corbyn and his policies and still do. Also predicted he would get mauled by the press and establishment, and wouldn't necessarily make it. You seem to have forgotten that part, and the endless other times accurate projections have been vindicated.
New Statesman is a Fabian Society magazine, tiny circulation, but yes they are part of the attack-machine.
pogo wrote:The Tories should not be able to walk this through parliament. The majority for Brexit was very slim; even if it were much higher there is no obligation on MPs to follow public opinion – see e.g. past votes on capital punishment which always went against public opinion. Not only would it be perfectly valid for Labour oppose Brexit it would be good politics. If they became the champions of the 48% who voted to stay, and made a strong case for it, then they could win over many voters turned off by Brexit and the Tory’s handling of it.
Because of people backing Tory (/neoliberal) narratives and lies, rather than defending the British people, Labour's economic competence, and progressive values and equality, this is the society you've got. "You reap what you sow." Any attempt to diffuse Brexit would have to be handled with extreme caution as there is now a mob climate fostered by the Nasty party.
zip accident wrote:Why the heck would Labour oppose Brexit? it suits them perfectly, and if it all goes tits up they can avoid the blame. They have nothing to win from opposing Brexit, Brexit is bad for business and for Britain, but they are not the party of business, and their main focus is international.
The progressive case for the EU is much stronger. The people who will suffer most are natural Labour supporters. Inflation will hit them in the pocket, lost business will cost them job and opportunities, the hit to government finances will require spending cuts that will hit them hardest.
That’s why the backers of Brexit were overwhelmingly wealthy. Those who can take a hit to their spending power and not notice it. Those who look on the economic ruin of Brexit as a business opportunity, a chance to buy up failing businesses, grow their portfolios and influence. And if it all goes totally pear-shaped and the worst forecasts come true they can relocate to Paris or New York to escape the economic ruin caused by Brexit.
zip accident wrote:Why the heck would Labour oppose Brexit? it suits them perfectly, and if it all goes tits up they can avoid the blame. They have nothing to win from opposing Brexit, Brexit is bad for business and for Britain, but they are not the party of business, and their main focus is international.
The progressive case for the EU is much stronger. The people who will suffer most are ordinary people. Inflation will hit them in the pocket, lost business will cost them job and opportunities, the hit to government finances will require spending cuts that will hit them hardest.
That’s why the backers of Brexit were overwhelmingly cunts...
FTFY
pogo wrote:...Those who can take a hit to their spending power and not notice it. Those who look on the economic ruin of Brexit as a business opportunity, a chance to buy up failing businesses, grow their portfolios and influence. And if it all goes totally pear-shaped and the worst forecasts come true they can relocate to Paris or New York to escape the economic ruin caused by Brexit.
What.. all 15 million of them??
I think you'll find quite a large proportion of those ranks are impressionable "working class" people who buy tabloid papers who are going to get shafted right up the ripper too. This will probably only make them more angry about immigrunts, skiving disableds, rag-heads, darkies etc
I’m thinking of the people who backed it financially, as well as the politicians who supported it. Rich cunts like Farage.
Many of the supporters of Brexit are not well off, but many of them supported it based on lies that Brexit would make them better off, or make Britain better off, as is now well documented and blindingly obvious given the economic damage it is already doing.
Tangentially this is where the strongest parallels are with what’s going on in the US Republican party. The backers of it are wealthy, very wealthy. But it’s hard to run an election campaign with policies that just benefit a handful of billionaires, so they run on a platform of lies. Lies about the the causes of people’s problems, about solutions that won’t work, that they can’t or won’t deliver. It didn’t start with Trump, it goes back decades. Trump is just the culmination of a path they started down 20+ years ago.
pogo wrote:The people who will suffer most are natural Labour supporters. Inflation will hit them in the pocket, lost business will cost them job and opportunities, the hit to government finances will require spending cuts that will hit them hardest.
So in order to avoid the problems that Brexit will bring about, all we have to do is stop supporting Labour and start supporting the Tories?
Welp, I'm in. I support May now, and can sit and watch comfortably from my position of privilege while Labour voters all suffer!
Or is that not what you meant? Either way, you have a pretty nasty mind, Pogo.
"Oh dear lord, I slightly soiled myself. Oxfam won’t be pleased."
To avoid the problems of Brexit we need to avoid Brexit. Which means supporting a party that is against it, and prepared to take a stand against it. If it needs to go through parliament then it won’t automatically pass, or pass without amendment. But there isn’t anyone to oppose it, or at least not from the two main parties.
May will probably be able to keep most Tories in line, which means the only way to mount an opposition would be if Labour were united against the government’s Brexit policy. It makes political sense for them to do so; almost half the electorate did not vote to leave the EU, and so would be likely to support a party clearly on the side of Remain. Probably more than half now, as quite a few Brexit supporters must be regretting their vote, given the economic damage Brexit is already causing.
pogo wrote:To avoid the problems of Brexit we need to avoid Brexit. Which means supporting a party that is against it, and prepared to take a stand against it. If it needs to go through parliament then it won’t automatically pass, or pass without amendment. But there isn’t anyone to oppose it, or at least not from the two main parties.
May will probably be able to keep most Tories in line, which means the only way to mount an opposition would be if Labour were united against the government’s Brexit policy. It makes political sense for them to do so; almost half the electorate did not vote to leave the EU, and so would be likely to support a party clearly on the side of Remain. Probably more than half now, as quite a few Brexit supporters must be regretting their vote, given the economic damage Brexit is already causing.
The Labour left will continue their tactic of damning Remain with faint praise. It's win/win for them, they are nominally against it, but don't strongly support it, if it goes half as badly as expected they can say "we told you so" ... profit. In the unlikely event that it works out okay, then it's set up for a Labour left putsch without EU interference. It's ideal for the left of Labour.
"My way is the way of not fighting":- the book of Enter the Dragon.
Germany’s finance minister told the Financial Times that, even after Brexit, the UK would be bound by tax rules that would restrict it from granting incentives to keep investors in the country - and would also face EU budget bills for more than a decade.
Wolfgang Schäuble told the paper: "Until the UK’s exit is complete, Britain will certainly have to fulfil its commitments. Possibly there will be some commitments that last beyond the exit … even, in part, to 2030 … Also we cannot grant any generous rebates.”
Schäuble also insisted that Britain must adhere to international rules on investment incentives - as with Japanese carmaker Nissan, which recently won UK government assurances when it agreed to keep its production in the UK.
“These rules apply to all whether EU members or not,” he said.
Jean-Claude Juncker has urged EU leaders not to hold referendums on their membership of the bloc because he fears their voters will also choose to leave.
Wrong lesson to learn there.
Deal with the lies,misinformation and general ignorance about the EU if you think your population might want to leave. Not giving a choice plays right into the hands of people painting the whole thing as undemocratic,ignorant and against the will of the people.
Wrong lesson to learn there.
Deal with the lies,misinformation and general ignorance about the EU if you think your population might want to leave. Not giving a choice plays right into the hands of people painting the whole thing as undemocratic,ignorant and against the will of the people.
I remain of the opinion that each country has a pro-leave party who are standing in enough seats to get elected if that's what people are so arsed about.
Only in the UK is there enough dissonance to make it so that a party with one fucking MP determines the near-future narrative for the nation, by dint of agitators in a major party flirting with them until the leader opens the door to a sea-change borne of frustration those who feel it barely understand. And only the UK has the spite and self-loathing carved into it's soul that would make the 1MP party in question not be one who are at the very least trying to be respectable human beings, such as the Greens.
Wait and see what France does, and others. There the populace will have the balls to say "I don't like them if they're different, and I generally feel like showing how pissed off I am" and give Le Pen and her ilk a stronger position, possibly even a controlling one. They might be contemptible 1930s throwbacks to a man, but at least they are fucking honest about it. Over here they vote Labour with one poll and hatred with the other. It's these witless wretches who have knackered the Labour party, not any left or centre-right bloc within the ranks. Slag Labour off all you want but how is the party supposed to make sense of anything if, as in places like Hull, you've got Nu-Labour kool-aid guzzlers as MPs who ignore the will of their CLPs, an electorate who will vote for no-one else in the general elections and yet overwhelmingly deliver a Leave vote in a town where the ONLY serious investment seen in a generation comes from European companies, simply because they want their lager-swilling tracksuit mafia to speak with a Yorkshire accent instead of an eastern european one?
You can't deal with lies, misinformation and ignorance about the EU, over here at least. Britain has had thirty or fourty years to get to grips with it. They don't want to, because they don't like foreigners. It's not even racism, they're just too fucking set in their ways to bother with anything that's remotely different, unless it completely suits them. The moment they are presented with a language barrier, or something they have to think to understand, fuck it. Can't be arsed. Now shut up, I'm trying to watch "Celebrity". We'll take our culture from America because there's a country which really has its shit together.
I hope for the sake of less malignant nations that their leaders are able to encourage the populace to stand and fight for improvements to what is a fundamentally good idea, with a flawed execution at present. We've had unity for a handful of decades, prior to that strife for centuries. But bollocks to it, it's not perfect so let's just fuck it off, eh?
It is no coincidence that as the EU begins to look unstable, the right gains a foothold. It's one or the other. You don't get to choose middle ground and you don't get to opt out. Unless you're Switzerland.
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