EU referendum are you in or out

Inane baanter or words of wisdom - you decide...
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EU Are you IN or OUT

In
98
77%
Out
21
17%
Undecided (shake it all about)
8
6%
 
Total votes: 127

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Dio
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by Dio »

Darkflame wrote:Personally I dont get why anyone trusts the UK government more then europe. On stuff like privacy abuses the EU was holding the UK back, out of the EU means less protections for citizens in quite a few areas.
Yes. The EU is a relative bastion against corporatism (especially in the technology sector - increasing availability of free roaming and the antitrust and privacy moves against Microsoft, Google et.al. would never have happened left to our anti-privacy, don't-offend-the-money government).

Of course, there is a fair bit of twattery too. What was done to Greece is an obvious example, as is the insanity that is the CAP (although our government seems to be keen to replicate that one here, so that's one huge exit opportunity missed).

Hence why I rate the overall impact of the EU vs. the UK on governance as roughly neutral.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by merman »

Farage comparing the EU to the Mafia... There aren't enough facepalms in the world.

What is worse is that the various Leave campaigns were repeatedly saying "we will stay in the Single Market" but Maggie May decided "Brexit means Brexit" and didn't even consider it.


She is now saying that freedom of movement might be extended for a time after the deal.
Which just postpones some of the economic and social misery.
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Dio
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by Dio »

merman wrote:What is worse is that the various Leave campaigns were repeatedly saying "we will stay in the Single Market" but Maggie May decided "Brexit means Brexit" and didn't even consider it.
Clearly the right call by May, since the alternative (single market membership without free movement) is impossible.

It was the Brexit campaign that (again) quite obviously and maliciously attempted to mislead on the issue.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by KlaxonCow »

Dio wrote:Clearly the right call by May, since the alternative (single market membership without free movement) is impossible.
I wouldn't call it "the right call", as that implies it's somehow good, but I agree that it was the only choice available - and, thus, to directly go for it and try to make it work as best you can, was a reasonable thing to do - because, simply, the Visegrád group (Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia) had explicitly stated that any compromise to freedom of movement would provoke their veto.

Single market access without freedom of movement is an impossible ask. Not just that veto, but the EU had repeatedly made it clear that there will be no circumstances where the UK's deal as a non-EU member will ever be better than EU members. Which is a perfectly logical demand on their side. If the UK profits by leaving, then it would be an encouragement for others to leave too.

Plus the obvious economic reality that you can't allow a country that's not obligated to the trade rules to trade freely in your market. To give the contrived example, you've got laws against toxic substances being used in the manufacture of baby toys - as no-one wants babies to be poisoned - but then you say "hey, country that has no laws against toxic baby toys, feel free to sell whatever you like in our market". The market's flooded with cheap and nasty toxic baby toys. Which both poisons babies and steals jobs / money from the actual EU members.

Everyone in the market has to follow the same market rules or all the businesses will rush over to the country with the least rules and regulations and taxes to make the most profit. It pragmatically has to be a level playing field or it just won't practically work. That's got nothing to do with which country likes which country or whatever, but is just logic and common sense. It can't be allowed or you'd actually break how the Single Market works.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by Little stoned kiwi »

KlaxonCow wrote:Plus the obvious economic reality that you can't allow a country that's not obligated to the trade rules to trade freely in your market. To give the contrived example, you've got laws against toxic substances being used in the manufacture of baby toys - as no-one wants babies to be poisoned - but then you say "hey, country that has no laws against toxic baby toys, feel free to sell whatever you like in our market". The market's flooded with cheap and nasty toxic baby toys. Which both poisons babies and steals jobs / money from the actual EU members.
That makes no sense whatsoever. Regardless of the UK being in the Single Market or not, trading with EU members would require adhering to EU standards. Not being in the EU could only allow a country to lower their standards for products they import or manufacture for local use.
You talk of a level playing field, which would be the removal of tariffs and subsidies. Something the Single Market engages in internally and externally.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by KlaxonCow »

Little stoned kiwi wrote:trading with EU members would require adhering to EU standards.
Yes, totally. That's exactly what I'm saying.

My point was that, from the EU's point of view, it cannot compromise that requirement for EU standards without damaging its own market by doing so. So it's never going to pragmatically do that, regardless of whether they do or don't like the UK at the moment. What I was getting at was that this is simply a pragmatic requirement - it must happen, with no choice in the matter.

The UK is an EU member at the moment. It will cease to be one after Brexit. Thus, the point is that we're not going to get a better deal as a non-EU member than we've got now as an EU member. It's not just that they don't want to give it to us, it's that they really can't.

It's nothing personal or political. It's pure pragmatism. They simply can't give the UK a better deal outside the EU than we're already getting inside the EU.

("A level playing field" just means a level playing field. It could mean tariffs and such, but it's not obliged to mean only that. The requirement to adhere to EU standards in trade is also an example of a "level playing field". Ensuring everyone abides by the same equal laws and trade standards.)
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Istar
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by Istar »

Istar wrote:... The Mistress is faced with an opportunistic House no-confidence vote and is forced to go to the country this/next year.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39629603

Now then. My position and activities over the past year are documented a couple of pages back. I am now stepping-up and answering the LD call for PPCs (Prospective Parliamentary Candidates). I don't expect to get selected, or if I am then I don't expect to get nominated, or if I am then I don't expect to get elected, but goddammit it's time to end this stupidity and I'm doing whatever I can.

To anyone here who thinks Leave is lunacy and the Conservatives are one opportunistic 'event' away from declaring the remains of the UK a police state, but have yet to do more than express their discontent in informed but ineffective comment, I say this:

ACT NOW
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by Baggypants »

Istar wrote:
Istar wrote:... The Mistress is faced with an opportunistic House no-confidence vote and is forced to go to the country this/next year.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39629603

Now then. My position and activities over the past year are documented a couple of pages back. I am now stepping-up and answering the LD call for PPCs (Prospective Parliamentary Candidates). I don't expect to get selected, or if I am then I don't expect to get nominated, or if I am then I don't expect to get elected, but goddammit it's time to end this stupidity and I'm doing whatever I can.

To anyone here who thinks Leave is lunacy and the Conservatives are one opportunistic 'event' away from declaring the remains of the UK a police state, but have yet to do more than express their discontent in informed but ineffective comment, I say this:

ACT NOW
Oh bravo sir. All the best!
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by (o)(o) »

Istar wrote:
Istar wrote:... The Mistress is faced with an opportunistic House no-confidence vote and is forced to go to the country this/next year.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39629603

Now then. My position and activities over the past year are documented a couple of pages back. I am now stepping-up and answering the LD call for PPCs (Prospective Parliamentary Candidates). I don't expect to get selected, or if I am then I don't expect to get nominated, or if I am then I don't expect to get elected, but goddammit it's time to end this stupidity and I'm doing whatever I can.

To anyone here who thinks Leave is lunacy and the Conservatives are one opportunistic 'event' away from declaring the remains of the UK a police state, but have yet to do more than express their discontent in informed but ineffective comment, I say this:

ACT NOW
Well I applaud you for doing something!

How long is the selection process? Six weeks to general election!
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Istar
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by Istar »

(o)(o) wrote:Well I applaud you for doing something!

How long is the selection process? Six weeks to general election!
If I passed application, assessment, and selection it would be do-able (just!).
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by merman »

Great tweet from Guy Verhofstadt (chief EU negotiator)

"As the EP Brexit negotiator, I will work with a new government for the best common future possible."

(My emphasis in bold...)
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by TFO »

merman wrote:Great tweet from Guy Verhofstadt (chief EU negotiator)

"As the EP Brexit negotiator, I will work with the same government for the best common future possible."

(My emphasis in bold...)
Fixed that for you
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by Darkflame »

I cant help voting at this point is like May wanting her exam results before taking the exam.
(o)(o) wrote:
Istar wrote:
Istar wrote:... The Mistress is faced with an opportunistic House no-confidence vote and is forced to go to the country this/next year.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39629603

Now then. My position and activities over the past year are documented a couple of pages back. I am now stepping-up and answering the LD call for PPCs (Prospective Parliamentary Candidates). I don't expect to get selected, or if I am then I don't expect to get nominated, or if I am then I don't expect to get elected, but goddammit it's time to end this stupidity and I'm doing whatever I can.

To anyone here who thinks Leave is lunacy and the Conservatives are one opportunistic 'event' away from declaring the remains of the UK a police state, but have yet to do more than express their discontent in informed but ineffective comment, I say this:

ACT NOW
Well I applaud you for doing something!
+1
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by VNVObit »

TFO wrote:
merman wrote:Great tweet from Guy Verhofstadt (chief EU negotiator)

"As the EP Brexit negotiator, I will work with the same government for the best common future possible."

(My emphasis in bold...)
Fixed that for you
even if it's the Tories again it will be a new government as they can jettison the policies from Osborne they didn't like.
sadly won't get a clear view of what the negotiating position will be from any of the parties (other than the ones with no/little chance of forming a government)
Personally I think it will be Tories but she will be beholden to the more toxic right of right wing element of the party.

Tactical voting would be the only way to avoid this but the other parties are still too focused inwardly to come to that conclusion (Labour in particular)
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by Istar »

Dio wrote:The idea that any general election results in anything other than a Tory landslide given the row of headless chickens on the benches opposite is by far the biggest fantasy there.
Would you like some salt on that hat? :wink:
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