EU referendum are you in or out

[gribbles]

He's already hoofed it over the crossbar.

Joined Labour because of him. Left because of him.

Waiting to see who will fetch the ball, place it calmly on the penalty spot and hammer the fucker home.

[Dio]

C'mon JEZ... Back of the net awaits..

Not that his position makes much more frickin' sense. Sign up to all the rules, pay all the money, accept all the judgements, no treaties with anyone else, but no say whatsoever in any of it.

It fixes the Ireland issue at the cost of any of the places where Brexit might actually have a point.

Fundamentally we're screwed every way now. Hard Brexit is a total mess, soft brexit is a total mess, and if we stay that's a total mess too because somewhere between 25% and 50% of the country will rise in rebellion.

[Little stoned kiwi]

Let the EU have Northern Ireland and anyone who wants to stay in can move there as well.

[KlaxonCow]

Well, soon enough, we'll probably have an independent Scotland for that purpose anyway.

[tufty]

somewhere between 25% and 50% of the country will rise in rebellion.

Somewhere between 25% and 50% of the country will be as pissed off as the other 25 to 50% were when it was decided to push through brexit based on a 2% majority in a non-binding referendum. There won't be a rebellion with pitchforks and stakes, but there will be carnage at the next election and a lot of politicians will find themselves out of a job. Which is what they're really afraid of.

[Governmentyard]

Indeed, although a civil war where the remain side are backed by all of the rest of Europe would be pretty epic.

[gravy]

C'mon JEZ... Back of the net awaits..

Not that his position makes much more frickin' sense. Sign up to all the rules, pay all the money, accept all the judgements, no treaties with anyone else, but no say whatsoever in any of it.

It fixes the Ireland issue at the cost of any of the places where Brexit might actually have a point.

Fundamentally we're screwed every way now. Hard Brexit is a total mess, soft brexit is a total mess, and if we stay that's a total mess too because somewhere between 25% and 50% of the country will rise in rebellion.

Softer brexit doesn't mean those things. It's a shit sandwich and worst than our current position but better than just falling back to WTO.

[KlaxonCow]

The real point, though, is that all the outcomes are now shit.

There are, of course, different levels of shit and some shit outcomes are more desirable or last longer than others.

But, basically, WTO rules is shit. Hard Brexit is shit. Soft Brexit is shit. Even having a second referendum, giving up on Brexit, and returning to the EU would be shit too - we've created an animosity and awkwardness that wouldn't go away.

And peripheral issues, like Scottish Independence, might now become inevitable in time, as every shit aspect of Brexit will sting for Scotland that never voted for it. Also, of course, Northern Ireland which also didn't vote for it and most directly has the biggest issues with it because that's our only actual border with an EU nation - further complicated, of course, by the fact that "the Irish situation" was a delicate powder keg of trouble without this further complication piled on top (i.e. the Irish Assembly isn't sitting at the moment).

So, for all the patriotic chest-beating, there's a good chance that this has sealed the fate on the UK itself in good time. And, arguably, that bit simply can't be undone anymore. Too late. Minds and spirits have been changed in ways that can't be simply reversed.

There's no good choices here. It's a case of choosing which shit outcome you can tolerate the most.

[zip accident]

There's no good choices here.

Yes there is. Suffer through Brexit for five or so years, until everone realises it's utterly shit, then reenter the EU.

The main reason Brexit is happening is that the main parties are united in wanting it, not all the members of the parties, but the leaderships.

[KlaxonCow]

Suffer through Brexit for five or so years, until everone realises it's utterly shit, then reenter the EU.

An odd definition of "a good choice", but I'll grant you it.

Though, of course, upon re-entry to the EU, we'll be compelled to switch to the Euro, won't be able to get our current rebate again and will have far less influence - because, I mean, what do we threaten for our non-compliance? Leaving again? Yeah, exactly. No-one'll take that seriously and just laugh it off.

Go ahead, leave again, if you like. You'll be back. And, by the way, thanks for scaring all the other EU members into not contemplating their own exits anymore, after watching how it all went tits up for you guys.

Some things are simply irrevocable. And this is going to be one of them. The damage has been done already.


(I actually don't think we will just simply go back after five years of shit. Humans are far more stubborn animals than that. We'll be out of the EU for a generation or so, at least. And, eventually, things will settle. It'll probably be a more shit place, but the UK (or what's left of it) will find its place in the world. It just won't remotely be this glorious re-birth of the British Empire, as the "little Englanders" behind Brexit imagine it'll be. There are, indeed, plenty of small independent countries that get by just fine. We'll join their ranks.

The one thing about instability is that it's unstable. It inevitably has to collapse into stability at some point, and at which point, as it's stable, things will persist that way. The chaos will inevitably collapse to some sort of order - it logically cannot do anything else - so I've never been opposed to Brexit because there cannot be a valid alternative.

I've been against this because that alternative, though valid, is worse. It's a bit shit. It won't be as good as what it would have been, if we'd voted the other way.

Also, I actually agree with Churchill - who coined the phrase "United States of Europe" and meant it in a totally positive sense - that we actually should move towards a unified supranational federation. Then, eventually, unite with the United States. Admit China and Russia, once they've sorted their heads out.

I'm a humanist, remember. The "false kin" of nationality is as much a Platonic "Noble Lie" as religion or money. I'm more sympathetic to it, because at least it's based on some truth - you do have some closer genetic and cultural ties with those in your immediate locality than the other side of the world - though it's not actually as much as most people believe it is. And, hey, even your closest family can be cunts sometimes and maybe deserve to be disowned, for everybody's benefit. Even if you believe in it, you shouldn't consider it to be a sacrosanct concept anyway.

You get the gist. The notion of a "One World Government" doesn't automatically repel me. Ultimately, it's got to happen, at least in part, if our species wants to go anywhere further.

I don't like the current implementation of the EU. But I've got no problem with the underlying idea. In fact, what I don't like about the current implementation of the EU is exactly by how much it differs from the ideal. They're doing it wrong. If they did it right, though, I'd be more than happy with that.

But Brexit is not the End of the World, any more than the Dark Ages were the end of human progress. It's an annoying temporary backwards pause in proceedings. But it won't stop the inevitable, as nothing can.)

[zip accident]

The notion of a "One World Government" doesn't automatically repel me. Ultimately, it's got to happen, at least in part, if our species wants to go anywhere further.

A world president for life seems likely be a very not good thing to me.

But it won't stop the inevitable, as nothing can.)

Nothing is inevitable. The inevitability of nothingness, very Tao, or is it Zen?

[Dio]

But, basically, WTO rules is shit. Hard Brexit is shit. Soft Brexit is shit. Even having a second referendum, giving up on Brexit, and returning to the EU would be shit too - we've created an animosity and awkwardness that wouldn't go away.

Exactly. And you can add the leave-then-return option to this shitlist too.

The closest thing I have to hope would be Labour going all in for stop-exit, and actually going and managing to sell to the country that the reason their life is shit is nothing to do with Europe but everything to do with the breakdown of the post-war consensus that The Rich Shalt Not Take The Piss. If they won that at a GE, it would only annoy those who didn't vote for them. But even that is a path fraught with danger since one of Corbyn's reasons for being anti-EU is that while the EU has historically been to the left of our recent governments it would be to the right of a Corbyn one and many of its rules on state aid etc. would be used to fight some percentage of his plans. And they probably can't get that message through anyway. And then if the Tories lurch strongly pro-exit, if they win an election they could take us out anyway. What a mess.

[Little stoned kiwi]

You folk need to find a way to trade with China.

[Dio]

On the delusion that such things matter is what this whole nonsense is built upon.

[zip accident]

You folk need to find a way to trade with China.

We buy their stuff, they aren't apparently interested in ours (do we even have anything to sell?).