EU referendum are you in or out

[Little stoned kiwi]

On the delusion that such things matter is what this whole nonsense is built upon.

You might not consider the ability to trade with China as being a good reason to Brexit, and you're probably right. The ability to trade with other markets is a reality post-Brexit. Significant economically, politically, and socially.

[(o)(o)]

The one thing about instability is that it's unstable. It inevitably has to collapse into stability at some point, and at which point, as it's stable, things will persist that way. The chaos will inevitably collapse to some sort of order

A disorderly exit (a viable option in the minds of ‘ultras’) would be unstable, quite how king it takes to return to stability is indeterminate, and it could be a less prosperous stability with more than a hint of feudalism.

Also, I actually agree with Churchill - who coined the phrase "United States of Europe" and meant it in a totally positive sense - that we actually should move towards a unified supranational federation.

Benn would agree with this, I think I could pull up a quote. It’s also the reason Bennites are pro- ‘Leave’, including Corbyn, but that doesn’t entail endorsing “Brexit” which is a bastardisation of a democratic application. David Cameron has a lot to answer for.

Sickening but Major has the best answer to this volatile situation put the leave terms to a public vote. Anyone with a brain would have thought of making that a requirement (or rather, clear objectives) up front, but the hard right ERG have a different agenda of course “Brittania Unchained”.

Note that McDonnell reopened the door for a second referendum if necessary, but if that happens it must be 2/3rds vote FFS

[tufty]

the UK (or what's left of it) will find its place in the world.

Yep. The problem is that Britain's place in the world is a place it's never had to deal with - As the empire declined, we stepped into Europe and became a part of a larger whole, neatly sidestepping the fact that Britain's place as an industrial leader was rapidly fading into the past. But now we're stepping out. Very little industry to speak of, not self-sufficient in food, the financial sector loses its advantage once the City is no longer a european city, and so on.

Britain is going the way of all the colonial powers.

If you don't know what that means, Belgium was a major colonial power.

[Rhythm]

If you don't know what that means, Belgium was a major colonial power.

So we'll be like Belgium only without the EU helping to prop us up? Splendid.

[Little stoned kiwi]

Britain is going the way of all the colonial powers.

That's a goddamn slur!

[(o)(o)]

[KlaxonCow]

Very little industry to speak of, not self-sufficient in food, the financial sector loses its advantage once the City is no longer a european city, and so on.

Oh, yes, totally. I've been consistently anti-Brexit throughout all this and I've not remotely changed my mind here.

I'm not saying Britain's place in the world will be any good. Your list there is absolutely on the money. Exactly why I voted "remain".

But I was just saying that there is a place - a small little unexciting place in the corner somewhere - and, simply by the "instability is unstable" logic, we will eventually find it. And almost certainly not be remotely content with it too, as it'll be a little bit shit.

In fact, I'm more pessimistic than most, as I reckon that we've already lost Scotland. That their eventual independence is now just a matter of time.

So in asking what the UK's place in the world will be, I'd be tempted to say nothing whatsoever, as the political union of the UK will cease to be, when the Scots walk. Thus, in that sense, when asking what Britain's place in the world will be, the most Northern residents of Britannia - the isle of Great Britain - will actually have their own different fate to England and Wales.

(And, yes, I've deliberately left out Northern Ireland above because, frankly, I have no fucking clue what's going to happen there. I'm not even going to touch an attempt at futurology with their fates, as there's too many variables. They also voted "remain" as a nation. Also, they're the ones who're going to be most directly affected, as they have an actual land border with the EU. Then you throw in "the troubles" and the DUP and... well, as I say, I'm not even going to try to guess what the hell will come out of all that going on. Not least because, if Scotland leave, the UK ceases to be. So, umm, what Union are the Unionists being all united with at that point? What flag will they wave on their marches? We also have to factor in that Northern Ireland will have the carpet pulled out from under them, in one way or another, by these "negotiations" and how will they react to that?)

[snaff]

Leaders of Italy’s triumphant conservative alliance have called for a radical change in the EU’s negotiating stance over Brexit, describing threats to restrict trade and punish Britain as ideological idiocy.

“Great Britain is a friendly country with a long tradition of trading with Italy,” said Matteo Salvini, leader of the Lega party and the man poised to become prime minister if the centre-Right coalition forms the next government.

“You made a free choice with Brexit and I very much hope that it will be possible to maintain completely open trade with the EU without any penalties,” he told The Daily Telegraph

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... y-foolish/

EU looking increasingly isolated in Europe.

[KlaxonCow]

EU looking increasingly isolated in Europe.

Yes. An increase of exactly one.

[gilesgoat]

Leaders of Italy’s triumphant conservative alliance have called for a radical change in the EU’s negotiating stance over Brexit, describing threats to restrict trade and punish Britain as ideological idiocy.

“Great Britain is a friendly country with a long tradition of trading with Italy,” said Matteo Salvini, leader of the Lega party and the man poised to become prime minister if the centre-Right coalition forms the next government.

“You made a free choice with Brexit and I very much hope that it will be possible to maintain completely open trade with the EU without any penalties,” he told The Daily Telegraph

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... y-foolish/

EU looking increasingly isolated in Europe.

... and now you are listening to what the LEGA NORD party in Italy says

.. this keeps getting better and better ...

No matter what "the damage been done and it's BIG" .. the more anyone twists/digs into this situation, the worse it keeps getting, you'll have to live with that "in history".

[Meow]

I don't understand the prosperity that EU is supposed to create, in 1988, I worked a full time factory job, which at the end of the week just covered the room and little food. Today in 2017 a Min-wage if you lived where I grew up in SE, you'd worked a full time job you'd still be in the same position. So you tell me where is this prosperity that EU has supposed to create for, for min-wage people, or working poor living in the EU, in modern Brittan today. there is no prosperity. The EU has done nothing for the working man. sure you augment maybe it created more working poor jobs, but where is the prosperity, it is only good for business, not the working poor.

[PFVA]

No one has done anything for the working men and women inn the last few decades. Not in the EU, not in the UK, not in the US, not even in Canada, things are getting worse everywhere.

[Dio]

The failure of the post-WW2 social contract of capitalism (basically "the rich shalt not take the piss") which started to wobble in the mid-70s and was hacked to pieces by the US and UK in the 80s is the real problem.

While socially it's been a general liberalising force, the EU hasn't done an awful lot from an economic point of view to mitigate that, and some of its recent actions over Greece have bordered on genuine lawful evil.

There's been exceptions. To some extent, big business hates the EU because it actually dares to tell them what to do and has the muscle to do it without risking being 'punished'. Contrast the behaviour of the US government (which doesn't care) and what we will be forced to do post-Brexit, where we will have to bow and scrape to big business and give in to every demand because of the "relocate-to-Belgium" threat. Are we likely to ask Google to pay their fair share of tax, if they have 2000 high-status service jobs easily relocated to some more friendly economic area? Not frickin' likely.

And frankly I think it's extraordinarily doubtful that the majority of UK governments in the meantime would have done more in the absence of the EU, or would have done better with the hands of cards we did have outside it. e.g. Being in the EU wouldn't have saved the British car industry, the coal mines, shipbuilding or the steel industry. Indeed, you can argue that in the former case the industry was at least partially saved by being inside the EU, even if it is now all under foreign ownership - I think it's pretty unlikely we'll see Nissan still being up here in ten years time if we bail and that's going to absolutely crater the economy around here.

[noodles]

I don't understand the prosperity that EU is supposed to create, in 1988, I worked a full time factory job, which at the end of the week just covered the room and little food. Today in 2017 a Min-wage if you lived where I grew up in SE, you'd worked a full time job you'd still be in the same position. So you tell me where is this prosperity that EU has supposed to create for, for min-wage people, or working poor living in the EU, in modern Brittan today. there is no prosperity. The EU has done nothing for the working man. sure you augment maybe it created more working poor jobs, but where is the prosperity, it is only good for business, not the working poor.

Unless you can force companies to share the profits (let's say 30%) with the employees, nothing changes. The problem is that is that the only political regime
with the muscle to enforce that without giving in to corruption and the evil influence of lobbyists is a dictatorship.
The refusal of the fat bastards to share their success with those who allowed it to make it happen in the first place is sickening and will not end well as more
and more money goes to the 1%.

By curiosity I read up on how the french revolution started. It went like this : the landowners (aristocrats mainly) wanted always more from their land
so raised the rent they charged to the agricultural workers (peasants) until it made no more sense for them to cultivate the land as the return they got from it was lower than what they would have to pay back in rent. So they stoppped working the fields. The harvest got smaller and smaller and so the price of bread went up as there was less flour to be found. People began to starve and got so angry the heads of some silk-wearing powdered bigwigs got chopped off.

Let's hope the current super privileged gold-plated assholes realise the insanity of their behavior before we get to that stage.
Or maybe they think they can get away with it as they can always move from one country to the next in this globalized economy. They have so far,
with little repurcussions for them. They are also probably betting on automation to neutralize the potential roots of any organized opposition, leaving the state
to distribute the minimum survival income and so prevent any serious explosion from happening. Cynical but could work for a while. Indefinetely ? Not so sure.

[Meow]

No one has done anything for the working men and women inn the last few decades. Not in the EU, not in the UK, not in the US, not even in Canada, things are getting worse everywhere.

Ontario has started to do something, min wage is 14 dollars per hour, rising to 15. you can live OK. So this why I ask, why are people so happy to stay, the only people to benefit is trade and freedom of movement. There is not benefit what so ever in being in EU, for the working poor....it has made no difference in there lives accept give them a nicer town center to get drunk in...