EU referendum are you in or out

[KlaxonCow]

And, as the UK crashes and burns economically, how do you think the Scots - who only barely voted to stay with the UK (on the strength of promises that have been largely completely fucking ignored since), and didn't vote for Brexit at all - will feel about all this?

Which way will they vote when that other second referendum - for Scottish Independence - comes around?

At which point, there is no UK anymore.

And I have absolutely no fucking clue how to predict what's going to happen with Northern Ireland. But they also didn't vote for Brexit. But they'll have the actual land border with an EU country - which will necessarily be a hard border if we're out on WTO rules (because checks and tariffs must happen under those rules) and that, by the way, would constitute a breach of the Good Friday Agreement by the UK government. Breach of contract. It's technically illegal, under the Good Friday Agreement, to leave with "no deal".

And the EU's "backstop" proposal is completely unacceptable to the UK and Northern Ireland - stick the border in the Irish Sea, which would leave NI in some kind of goodness-knows-what limbo land. So that's no fucking good either.

Plus, if the Scots go, then how will all the other nations re-evaluate the situation?

The Brexiteers are waving the British flag. That flag will very possibly cease to exist, thanks to their efforts.

There's no rebuilding the Empire, you idiots. But we're definitely going back to being "the poor man of Europe" once more.

Weirdly, the country voted for that - because an Australian American told them that Brussels wanted to force "straight bananas" on us, and they all believe this ridiculous lie, even though, you know, there's never once been a point in our 40 year history with the EU where it wasn't possible to buy a curvy banana at the local supermarket.

This is what stuns me. People buy into this shit, even though they can see - with their own two eyes, right there in front of them - every time they pass the bananas at their local supermarket, that there is no ban on curvy bananas. Because - Look! There! I'm pointing at it! - curvy bananas. There are curvy bananas there. You can pick them up and buy them. It's clearly not fucking true!

(And, to be honest, even if all the bananas were straight - which they ain't - then what's so vital about banana curvature anyway? We're going to self-sacrifice ourselves for the sake of banana curvature? Why? What the fuck for?)

And, best of all, the real reason why Dave called this on. To stop the in-fighting in the Tory party over Europe.

Well, that's not going to work either. The Tories are already tearing themselves into tiny pieces and, come March and the inevitable economic disaster that ensues regardless of what "plan" they go with, then you think they'll all just kiss and make up once again?

Fuck, no. Indeed, UKIP membership has apparently already been recovering and swelling recently, with May's Chequers plan being interpreted - by that Australian American's propaganda toilet roll - as "a betrayal of Brexit!!".

(In fairness to May - and I'm absolutely no fan - I interpret her plan as just being "realpolitik". If there is no cancelling Brexit and we must proceed, then her plan is basically wall-to-wall "damage limitation", as best as she can muster with any hope of the EU perhaps agreeing to it, as it simply has to be in the face of this fucking catastrophe.)

[F-ZeroOne]

Writing off pro-Brexitors as a knuckle dragging, UKIP supporting, football obsessed dragoons is no better than the supposed thinking of the stereo type you've presented.

Quite. My parents are not knuckle-dragging, football-obsessed, etc.

And yet, in discussion as to exactly why they helped piss my future down the river, their arguments were exactly those expounded above.

Also broadly reflects my experience with Brexit-voting relatives. A younger relative, who works for a large international firm, runs rings around them whenever economic issues around Brexit are raised.

Its worth noting that though other countries in the EU are arguably under much worse immigration pressure than the UK, so far, as far as I'm aware, no others have held a similar referendum.

Also, if Brexit is about economic policies, do we actually have anything solid from that side other than vague promises of being "able to do our own deals" as opposed to the known or perceived advantages of remaining in the EU?

[Little stoned kiwi]

Which way will they vote when that other second referendum - for Scottish Independence - comes around?

That will be much trickier. A separated Scotland with it and the UK in the EU would have been workable. A separated Scotland and UK not in the EU could be workable. A separated Scotland trying to join the EU would result in having to rebuild Hadrian's wall.
There's still Northern Ireland to work out! Perhaps, in the interest of keeping the peace in Europe (which is what the EU is about, isn't it?) the EU will make an open trade arrangement with the UK to prevent hard borders.

[Little stoned kiwi]

Also broadly reflects my experience with Brexit-voting relatives. A younger relative, who works for a large international firm, runs rings around them whenever economic issues around Brexit are raised.

What does he think about the UK dropping the Pound for the Euro?

[F-ZeroOne]

The younger relative? No idea. Subjects never come up in conversation.

[Little stoned kiwi]

You never discuss the way forward for the UK?

[zip accident]

You never discuss the way forward for the UK?

Brexit is the way backward to a past that never was.

[Little stoned kiwi]

No, I was meaning in general. Such as if the UK was to stay in the EU. What is the progression and way forward for the UK? Is there no direction either way?
Such as dropping the pound and adopting the euro. Or CAP, it seems most people here think CAP is broken and it's better to stay in the EU to change the system from the inside. What changes to the EU does the UK need to change and has it been doing that? With all the influence the UK has in the bottom-up structure of the EU, what has and should it be pushing for?

[zip accident]

No, I was meaning in general. Such as if the UK was to stay in the EU. What is the progression and way forward for the UK? Is there no direction either way?
Such as dropping the pound and adopting the euro. Or CAP, it seems most people here think CAP is broken and it's better to stay in the EU to change the system from the inside. What changes to the EU does the UK need to change and has it been doing that? With all the influence the UK has in the bottom-up structure of the EU, what has and should it be pushing for?

The CAP was not just about agricultural produce for city dwellers, it was also about rural employment, as such it didn't really suit Britain, where most farms are big and corporate and don't employ many people. With Britain out, it will be full speed ahead for the CAP.

[KlaxonCow]

You never discuss the way forward for the UK?

The Sex Pistols once discussed this.



"No future! No future! No future for you!"

[Little stoned kiwi]

Ya all might have to migrate to an EU country then.

[Rhythm]

Ya all might have to migrate to an EU country then.

Eff that. I already live in one! The Brexiters should have been the ones that needed to move

[tufty]

With Britain out, it will be full speed ahead for the CAP.

Nah, not really. there's lots of criticism of the CAP over here in Euroland as well, most of which is concentrated around the issue that the majority of aid goes to the biggest, most industrial, farmers. There's plenty of them over here too. However, change requires willingness to change which requires politicians who aren't in the pockets of the rich lobbyists. And there aren't many of them, anywhere.

[merman]

The pound's been dropping since the 80s, it's a secular market trend. The country's been getting poorer for a long time. Gordon Brown alone dropped it more than brexit.

Let brexit flush the weak hands out of the market and take us to more solid fundamentals. It's a good thing to be lean and independent of the broader EU uncertainties in the coming economic crisis.

The pound falling again today, when it should have been going up after the interest rate rise.


These more solid fundamentals - what are they exactly?
We won't have a car industry after Brexit.
Agriculture will be decimated without Europe.


I suppose we'll just have to rely on webuyany car / home / body part dot com...

[snaff]

The pound's been dropping since the 80s, it's a secular market trend. The country's been getting poorer for a long time. Gordon Brown alone dropped it more than brexit.

Let brexit flush the weak hands out of the market and take us to more solid fundamentals. It's a good thing to be lean and independent of the broader EU uncertainties in the coming economic crisis.

The pound falling again today, when it should have been going up after the interest rate rise.


These more solid fundamentals - what are they exactly?
We won't have a car industry after Brexit.
Agriculture will be decimated without Europe.


I suppose we'll just have to rely on webuyany car / home / body part dot com...

There's a lot of dead wood that will have to go. The next recession will need to be severe if it's to get to the root of it. If we have another phoney government-printed recovereh like last time it will only prolong the current misery. I don't see anything wrong with building industries that create real wealth, rather than ones which rely on lots of dodgy EU schemes to shuffle money around the friendly in-groups.