EU referendum are you in or out

[Dio]

And let's also note that the position he spends most time campaigning for, staying in the customs union but leaving the EU, is the most obviously stupid one at all: all the rules, none of the say.

I don't think that's quite how it is actually.

Remaining in the customs union means keeping the ECJ, all European "red tape", the four freedoms, a budget contribution etc, but giving up any say in how any of the rules are made.

Name me one way in which this is superior to the current position of simply "staying in".

[phattslagg]

Which is why he has been careful to word it as “a customs union”.

[zip accident]

Which is why he has been careful to word it as “a customs union”.

How would he convince them to give us better terms? That's just daft. As is all brexit.

[tufty]

And let's also note that the position he spends most time campaigning for, staying in the customs union but leaving the EU, is the most obviously stupid one at all: all the rules, none of the say.

I don't think that's quite how it is actually.

Remaining in the customs union means keeping the ECJ, all European "red tape", the four freedoms, a budget contribution etc, but giving up any say in how any of the rules are made.

Name me one way in which this is superior to the current position of simply "staying in".

Bent Bananas.

[phattslagg]

He can't, of course.

But, this is hugely missing the point, which is:

*Calling the Referendum was the real mistake.*

It was called, and we cannot change that. It went to an annoyingly slight majority. There is simply no way to pretend this didn't happen.

It was well known, even (especially?) amongst Leave supporters, that there is no simple solution to which even one side can agree as to how we might actually leave the EU.

Remainers have always been united on at least the one simple assertion, ie that we expect things to be worse when we leave - it's just a matter of 'how much worse'.

So, yes, of course Corbyn knows that whatever we manage to negotiate will likely be worse than what he have now. But this is what the result of the referendum demands.

Had the In/Out campaign been fought on party lines, then he would have been in a stronger position to fully oppose Brexit, but it wasn't.

We fucked up. There have to be consequences to that - it's all about 'least worst' now.

[tufty]

We fucked up. There have to be consequences to that - it's all about 'least worst' now.

That's very true.

However, those in charge don't seem to care about "least worst" and are playing party political chess instead. The only ones who have an actual goal in mind for brexit inasmuch as it affects the country seem to be the ERG nutters.

[Dio]

The colossal fuck up was allowing the referendum to be on 'leave' without specifying what 'leave' would actually mean. That meant that the leavers could make individual promises to every group that it would fix all the ills of their lives, without any regard to whether or not those promises were either contradictory or unachievable.

Having clearly established both the latter points are true, the promises turn to lies.

And yes, the Labour party is absolutely a huge part of that fuckup. Much of Labour thought they could use that campaign to divide the Tories, some of Labour (including, I suspect, Corbyn) thought it would be terribly convenient if it was the Tories that actually took the blame for getting out of Europe.

I've never been enthusiastic about a second referendum, but I tend to believe it's the only way forward. It has to clearly be framed in those terms above. "You were promised the world and it can't be done. Now these are the realistic scenarios - do you want us to go ahead?" Farage and his rich friends and most of the media will still obviously roll their buggy eyes at the "betrayal of democracy" (A new 'UK Democratic Party' will be formed within weeks if Brexit doesn't go ahead, mark my words) but reasoned argument can show that the original referendum was run on a tilted pitch.

[F-ZeroOne]

NewKIP have at least provided some very much needed amusement:


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... remain-mps

First, their leader has an interesting definition of the concept of "treason".

Second, they seem to have adopted the obsession with four hundred year old laws that all fringe groups sooner or later seem to catch.

[Rhythm]

Found this on Reddit, echoes worries I've had:

Ivanka Majic on Twitter:

"When I was 14 I lived in a country called Yugoslavia. This is a civilised country, people said, there will be no war."

Full thread:

https://twitter.com/ivanka/status/1090519840903884800
"We had hyperinflation. That means that they had to knock zeros of the currency so you didn’t have to carry buckets of cash. This is a civilised country, people said, there will be no war.

We had lots of nationalist chatter. Even some pop songs that triggered fights at school discos. This is a civilised country, people said, there will be no war.

Then I was 15. Teachers didn’t get paid. My mother was a teacher, so I know. But this is a civilised country, people said, there will be no war.

It’s the others people blamed. The ones not like us. But this is a civilised country, people said, there will be no war.

I was in Mostar in school and I wondered how I would get home if there was a war. But this is a civilised country, people said, there will be no war.

When I was 16 my parents went out to dinner one night. I babysat my siblings. It was a Saturday. We are going to England, my parents said, we think there will be war.

It was 1991, and there was war.

It is 2019, I am 44, and I live in Britain. But this is Britain people keep saying."

Lots of people in the thread on Reddit debating the differences between 90s Yugoslavia and 2019 Britain, looking for every excuse why it wouldn't happen, but there's just that little niggle constantly in the back of my head. :-/

[(o)(o)]

The colossal fuck up was allowing the referendum to be on 'leave' without specifying what 'leave' would actually mean. That meant that the leavers could make individual promises to every group that it would fix all the ills of their lives, without any regard to whether or not those promises were either contradictory or unachievable.

Having clearly established both the latter points are true, the promises turn to lies.

And yes, the Labour party is absolutely a huge part of that fuckup.

Oh puh-lease.. the referendum is OWNED by the Tory Party. Everything about it. You are falling for the Tory ploy "deny accountability - project blame onto others". Labour are in opposition FFS!

The Tories have LED this Titanic prophecy from the beginning and have used every trick in the book to resist parliamentary.. conservatism! Contempt of parliament, they would sign their own fookin enabling act if there was a way! Plus as I keep saying, the evidence has been in our faces the whole time that there is a substantial demographic of deep state who will willingly career us into the iceberg.

@tufty I'm surprised you think JC calls for a GE are not real. I believe wholeheartedly he/Labour want the ball. However, if there is "a cunning plan", it would be to go in with a set of red lines that, actually aren't that bad for the UK really, but the EU probably won't accept. "We tried..." then peoples vote. Letting the loons down gently is about the only political path to minimise harm - unless anybody has a better suggestion?

An alternative would be to keep kicking the ball down the road until leave voters die off!

[gilesgoat]

Found this on Reddit, echoes worries I've had:

Ivanka Majic on Twitter:

"When I was 14 I lived in a country called Yugoslavia. This is a civilised country, people said, there will be no war."

Full thread:

https://twitter.com/ivanka/status/1090519840903884800
"We had hyperinflation. That means that they had to knock zeros of the currency so you didn’t have to carry buckets of cash. This is a civilised country, people said, there will be no war.

We had lots of nationalist chatter. Even some pop songs that triggered fights at school discos. This is a civilised country, people said, there will be no war.

Then I was 15. Teachers didn’t get paid. My mother was a teacher, so I know. But this is a civilised country, people said, there will be no war.

It’s the others people blamed. The ones not like us. But this is a civilised country, people said, there will be no war.

I was in Mostar in school and I wondered how I would get home if there was a war. But this is a civilised country, people said, there will be no war.

When I was 16 my parents went out to dinner one night. I babysat my siblings. It was a Saturday. We are going to England, my parents said, we think there will be war.

It was 1991, and there was war.

It is 2019, I am 44, and I live in Britain. But this is Britain people keep saying."

Lots of people in the thread on Reddit debating the differences between 90s Yugoslavia and 2019 Britain, looking for every excuse why it wouldn't happen, but there's just that little niggle constantly in the back of my head. :-/

Yes .. it was the 1991 .. yes .. it was about 30 miles from where I lived ( yes I live that close to the borders ) .. yes we had tanks and the army "ready and loaded and fully armed" just in case .. yes there was lot of shit going on .. yes we could have been called to serve in the war too if necessary ( thankfully it wasn't ) .. yes there have been many consequences ..

Also consider a good .. let's say 35% of population in my region ( if not even 50% ) are of 'mixed origins' which means there are many italo-yugoslavian/serbian/slovenian/hroatian/etc. ..

Someone once told me that "war happens when people less think is going to happen" or even worse when they think "it's never going to happen".

Anyway there were a bit different stories in there but well "war or not war" if you get the point "there's no food, there's no water, there's no petrol, there's hyper-inflation, etc. " .. shit happens ..

Anyway I remember was a bit "strange" just take the car, go out on the road, pass by a certain place to go in the direction of Trieste, still Italy but very close to borders and all in sudden "Oh .. there are 3 tanks and some miltary tents under the bridge" .. hum ..

But I would fear MUCH MORE NOW if such a thing would happen, becuase at least in those times we DID NOT have those "ultra nutters" like Salvini, Di Maio and Grillo ...

And yes very true.dat, would be much better if there would be still Berlusconi, he spends money in parties and heck knows what .. but he's less dangerous that the ones above

[snaff]

That woman's mentally ill. Nobody's going to war because of brexit.

[Dio]

Oh puh-lease.. the referendum is OWNED by the Tory Party. Everything about it. You are falling for the Tory ploy "deny accountability - project blame onto others". Labour are in opposition FFS!

Bull-shit, Mr. President. Sure, the Conservatives started the whole fuckin' stupid thing. But by voting that referendum through Labour handed a stick to the leavers and they've been relentlessly beaten with it ever since. For good reason.

And then promised to uphold the result in the manifesto for the interim GE.

If this is a Labour leadership team that actually thinks leave might be a bad idea, they're fucking good at hiding it.

a substantial demographic of deep state

What on earth does that mean?

[zip accident]

That woman's mentally ill. Nobody's going to war because of brexit.

We're talking prices doubling and wages halving. Then civil war becomes more possible.

The full on reds versus the full on fascists, with all the sane people caught in the middle, I can sort of see that.

[Rhythm]

That woman's mentally ill. Nobody's going to war because of brexit.

If Brexiters weren't so liberal with terms like "traitor", "treason", "saboteur", "remainer bullies" etc I'd be more inclined to believe you. I'd also be a lot more comfortable if some of them hadn't started trying to cause disruption and general mayhem in the name of Brexit. As it stands, though... yeah, I'm a bit nervous