EU referendum are you in or out

[Dio]

He cannot simply demand cancelling Article 50, as leave voters outnumber remainers in Labour marginals.

But Labour voters are > 60% remain, and Labour members are > 80%.

Not in the marginal seats.

Democracy in action!

[zip accident]

He cannot simply demand cancelling Article 50, as leave voters outnumber remainers in Labour marginals.

But Labour voters are > 60% remain, and Labour members are > 80%.

Not in the marginal seats.

Who says that the safe/remain seats won't become marginal if the parties back leave?

[(o)(o)]

He cannot simply demand cancelling Article 50, as leave voters outnumber remainers in Labour marginals.

But Labour voters are > 60% remain, and Labour members are > 80%.

Not in the marginal seats.

Democracy in action!

I thought we'd done this? The Labour policy has been arrived at democratically. Labour policy is exactly an example of democracy in action. Democracy does NOT mean slavishly following public opinion.

Who says that the safe/remain seats won't become marginal if the parties back leave?

Because they are safe seats? That could change - but the evidence atm is unambiguously appeasing people who hold a polarised view of the referendum result would be suicide for Labour. The greatest chance we have of staying in the EU is actually to get behind Labour.

[VNVObit]

The greatest chance we have of staying in the EU is actually to get behind Labour.

sorry but if they're are best chance then we are doomed as they have enough rebels that will side with the government rather than their own party (irrespective of whipping)

[Harlequin]

I do wonder why, it seems, harder Left movements demanding collective decisions, responsibility and power so frequently appear to devolve into worshipping single, individual, Infallible Great Leaders.

[KlaxonCow]

MSM?

MSM = Mainstream Media

[gilesgoat]

I do wonder why, it seems, harder Left movements demanding collective decisions, responsibility and power so frequently appear to devolve into worshipping single, individual, Infallible Great Leaders.

.. because this is precisely how the harder left works ?

Wir werden das Reich wie immer größer machen !

( don't take my german as any good, i used google transl, maybe not the best for political talks )

Besides I did not know that "empire" as in "british empire" translates as "reich".

Now funny thing I can't remember who said/where i read this, i think someone said that "the first reich was something, the second reich had to be something, the third reich had to last 1000 years and a fourth reich will never be".

Can't remember where i read that.

Ah no or was something like "the first reich was the roman empire, the second reich" .. anyway the conclusion was that "a 4th reich will never be".

I think the third reich had to be Hitler's one so given that it did not last 1000 years i don't think there's any hope for a 4th one.

[edit] - has to be noted that whatever I write here or anywhere else does not matter because the government seems to do whatever they want listening to no one so it's all pointless, people's voice counts only when it's convenient to them.

Now how many riots we get with 'no deal' and a referendum to unify Ireland + Scotland independent ?

[phattslagg]

I do wonder why, it seems, harder Left movements demanding collective decisions, responsibility and power so frequently appear to devolve into worshipping single, individual, Infallible Great Leaders.

The idea that party members that support the leadership “worship” Corbyn is insulting nonsense. The situation is simply that, for the main, he stands for a manifesto that left-leaning supporters can get behind. We also believe that he will try his best to deliver on that manifesto if he becomes PM.

So, we support him, and rally to defend him against his critics. It what’s supporters of all political parties do, FFS.

Loads of us voted Remain, and would still do so - but we also believe that another 5 years of Tory rule will be so devastating to so many disadvantaged people, that we would, on balance, prefer a Labour govt with soft Brexit than perma-Tory without it.

We also know that our opponents will do whatever they can to prevent anything remotely resembling a socialist govt from gaining power in this country. So, yes, we jump to his defence when he is attacked - just like we would with any party leader we felt we could support. The Labour Party matters to its members, and we want the fucking tories out.

[gilesgoat]

I do wonder why, it seems, harder Left movements demanding collective decisions, responsibility and power so frequently appear to devolve into worshipping single, individual, Infallible Great Leaders.

.. because this is precisely how the harder left works ?

Wir werden das Reich wie immer größer machen !

( don't take my german as any good, i used google transl, maybe not the best for political talks )

Besides I did not know that "empire" as in "british empire" translates as "reich".

Now funny thing I can't remember who said/where i read this, i think someone said that "the first reich was something, the second reich had to be something, the third reich had to last 1000 years and a fourth reich will never be".

Can't remember where i read that.

Ah no or was something like "the first reich was the roman empire, the second reich" .. anyway the conclusion was that "a 4th reich will never be".

I think the third reich had to be Hitler's one so given that it did not last 1000 years i don't think there's any hope for a 4th one.

[edit] - has to be noted that whatever I write here or anywhere else does not matter because the government seems to do whatever they want listening to no one so it's all pointless, people's voice counts only when it's convenient to them.

Now how many riots we get with 'no deal' and a referendum to unify Ireland + Scotland independent ?

[edit2] - my brain is still melting at the flu, i was thinking 'right' instead of 'left' and Theresa May

[phattslagg]

[edit2] - my brain is still melting at the flu, i was thinking 'right' instead of 'left' and Theresa May

[Harlequin]

MSM?

MSM = Mainstream Media

The one that Donald Trump hates. Remember? The one he accuses of constantly spreading FAKE NEWS about He Who Can Do No Wrong.

I do wonder why, it seems, harder Left movements demanding collective decisions, responsibility and power so frequently appear to devolve into worshipping single, individual, Infallible Great Leaders.

The idea that party members that support the leadership “worship” Corbyn is insulting nonsense. The situation is simply that, for the main, he stands for a manifesto that left-leaning supporters can get behind. We also believe that he will try his best to deliver on that manifesto if he becomes PM.
So, we support him, and rally to defend him against his critics. It what’s supporters of all political parties do, FFS.

I was going to write "follow" but "worship" seemed a better fit for the concept of infallibility. Some criticism of all leaders is justified and, arguably, necessary. Even many long-term supporters of the Labour Party, including quite a few of its MPs, are willing to express such criticism (and the same can be said of the Tories and May — it seems to be what many supporters of all large political parties do). Yes, correct inaccuracies and call out misrepresentations, unwarranted assumptions and exaggerations. I would beware, however, becoming blind to all and any faults. Firstly, because leaders depend on those around them to provide negative as well as positive feedback; secondly, because such deliberate disregard for human flaws can look cultishly deluded to those unwilling to suspend disbelief upon such fragile threads.

[phattslagg]

No one is blind to his faults. The only people who believe that we are, are those pushing the “Cult of Corbyn” meme - they can’t understand why we didn’t ditch him for a charismatic centrist at the first opportunity, so they think it must be blind, uncritical worship. In reality, it’s simply a matter of weighing up the pros and cons. Someone who has consistently voted against austerity has a massive advantage over people like centrists’ darling, Yvette Cooper, who was actually the one who started the CWA debacle when she was in office.

[VNVObit]

No one is blind to his faults. The only people who believe that we are, are those pushing the “Cult of Corbyn” meme - they can’t understand why we didn’t ditch him for a charismatic centrist at the first opportunity, so they think it must be blind, uncritical worship. In reality, it’s simply a matter of weighing up the pros and cons. Someone who has consistently voted against austerity has a massive advantage over people like centrists’ darling, Yvette Cooper, who was actually the one who started the CWA debacle when she was in office.

Don’t remember there being any charismatic centrists - They may have been been centrist candidates when Corbyn ran but none were obvious leaders (when compared to each other never mind going against Corbyn)

[zip accident]

Who says that the safe/remain seats won't become marginal if the parties back leave?

Because they are safe seats? That could change - but the evidence atm is unambiguously appeasing people who hold a polarised view of the referendum result would be suicide for Labour. The greatest chance we have of staying in the EU is actually to get behind Labour.

So all the remain voters are polarised, and all leave voters are unpolarised?

How the fuck does that work?

Labour's current policy so far as I can tell is pro-Brexit.

[tufty]

Labour's current policy so far as I can tell is pro-Brexit.

It's explicitly pro-Brexit.

From https://labour.org.uk/issues/labours-plan-brexit/

Labour respects the result of the referendum, and Britain is leaving the EU. But we will not support any Tory deal that would do lasting damage to jobs, rights and living standards.