EU referendum are you in or out

Inane baanter or words of wisdom - you decide...
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EU Are you IN or OUT

In
98
77%
Out
21
17%
Undecided (shake it all about)
8
6%
 
Total votes: 127

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gilesgoat
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by gilesgoat »

tufty wrote:
zip accident wrote:Labour's current policy so far as I can tell is pro-Brexit.
It's explicitly pro-Brexit.

From https://labour.org.uk/issues/labours-plan-brexit/
Labour respects the result of the referendum, and Britain is leaving the EU. But we will not support any Tory deal that would do lasting damage to jobs, rights and living standards.
I still think the absurdity of all this they both seems to want "things" .. that fundamentally are "that's what EU was made for" so why you just did not continue to stay in the EU ?

And to day I still don't quite understand "why leave EU then", even if it seems,what google says,mostly for "fear of immigration" ( real or falsely provocated ).

I think anyway nothing of that would have ever happened and things would be still happily going now without Cameron's referendum :|

Referendum that was "supposed to be a fake and never been won".

Mah .. really .. "one of the most careless things ever done in history" (*).

(*) of course there have been many others but this enters the list too.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by KlaxonCow »

Harlequin wrote:I do wonder why, it seems, harder Left movements demanding collective decisions, responsibility and power so frequently appear to devolve into worshipping single, individual, Infallible Great Leaders.
In fairness, the right have had their own "personality cults" too.

After all, when you give the Nazi salute, it's accompanied by "Heil Hitler", right?

Not "Heil Deutscheland" nor any other "Heil [insert concept here]" but "Heil [insert Great Leader's name here]".

Which is, of course, all a steal from the Romans anyway. The Nazi salute a distortion of the Roman salute, where you put a fist to your heart with your right hand and then straighten that arm. A gesture similar in style to "blowing a kiss", but the semantics are "countrymen, I give you my heart". So you reach for your heart and then throw it to the crowd (which is why it has to be the right arm doing it, as your heart is slightly to the left side of your chest - the left hand would be giving your countrymen one of your lungs or something, which doesn't quite work).

And, yes, the Roman salute was accompanied by "Hail Caesar!". The Nazis were so unoriginal. Total copyright infringement. The Swastika is also, of course, another stolen meme too.

But this gives you another non-left example - as I doubt anyone would contend that the Roman Empire was ever "leftist" by any measure - and yet we still have that Caesar "personality cult" going on there.

Oh, and one can even, by extension, note that German "Kaiser" and Russian "Tzar" are just distortions of "Caesar" - so, really, the whole concept of kings and monarchy is ultimately a "personality cult" export thing too. After all, rationally, why should we give the slightest shit for Liz Two, or any of her lineage, otherwise?

Why, it's because she's a descendant of some ancient "personality cult" tribal leader and so she's inherited their supposed "magical powers".

Nah, none of this is a "left / right" thing. It's just a "dumb humans" thing.

I presume you know of the Stanley Milgram Experiments, yes?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

Basically, about 67% of humans are unfortunately still saddled with a vestigial "pack instinct" to kow-tow to "the Alpha".

There was a survival advantage to that back in the days of small nomadic human tribes - just as with packs of wolves, or any other hunting pack animal, you defer to the Alpha Male to make the decisions, to ensure the pack is all on the same page. We do what Alpha says. And if we all do what Alpha says, then that ensures we're all following the same plan, and we don't end up with the pack all going off in their own directions and not acting as "a pack" at all.

Such behaviour can get you killed. Which is why the military, of course, have that whole strict "chain of command" thing. In a dangerous situation, if you don't work together then you risk getting everyone killed.

So, maggot, drop to the floor and give me a hundred. Which is, of course, just enforced "training" in the art of kow-towing to the Alpha and it's harsh to beat all that "individualism" you might have in your soul out of you. Special snowflakes get people killed, so we'll be having none of that here, maggot.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by phattslagg »

The idea that Corbyn could be the figure of a personality cult is one of the most ludicrous of all. The man is practically devoid of personality.

From Twitter this morning: “Anti-Corbyn terms such as 'Dear Leader', 'cultish' and 'Messiah' are designed deliberately to infantilise socialists; and usually they are used by those that accuse the left of ducking serious debate.”

See also “Remoaners”. A belittling term that serves only as a blanket denouncement of anyone you can’t be bothered actually debating with.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by Harlequin »

KlaxonCow wrote:
Harlequin wrote:I do wonder why, it seems, harder Left movements demanding collective decisions, responsibility and power so frequently appear to devolve into worshipping single, individual, Infallible Great Leaders.
In fairness, the right have had their own "personality cults" too.
…
Yes. I was more musing upon the humorous incongruity of those most fervently insistent upon the Collective placing so much faith and reverence upon particular Individuals. It does not appear as contradictory on the Right, which tends to champion both the Individual and social hierarchy.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by Rhythm »

phattslagg wrote: See also “Remoaners”. A belittling term that serves only as a blanket denouncement of anyone you can’t be bothered actually debating with.
Sorry to invoke her name again but my previous MP (Andrea Jenkyns) does this. Everyone that disagrees with her is a Remoaner, traitor or, as she revealed this weekend when she met with one, a "troll".
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by KlaxonCow »

Harlequin wrote:Yes. I was more musing upon the humorous incongruity of those most fervently insistent upon the Collective placing so much faith and reverence upon particular Individuals. It does not appear as contradictory on the Right, which tends to champion both the Individual and social hierarchy.
Yes, I'll give you that one.

Reminds me of that other horrible incongruity of the Religious Right in America...

...with that brown Middle-Eastern socialist, who preached a very radical form of pacifism - where you should not only fail to defend yourself from evil, but should actually assist them by offering them your other cheek, walking an extra mile when they compel you to walk one, if they sue you for your shirt then give them your coat as well ("but I say unto you, resist not evil" - yeah, offer no resistance whatsoever) - and forbade the death penalty being enacted, and told folks to give up all their worldy possessions (including their family and friends, if needs be) to follow him, as "before this generation is out" then the world would end anyway.

An extreme pacifist, who only ever got angry and violent over one thing - profiteering in the temple. Unrestrained "free market capitalism" in a holy place was the one thing that got him so riled up that he was flipping tables and actually started violently whipping people. That shit really pisses him off.

But, somehow, in a gargantuan feat of cognitive dissonance, he's become for the American religious right, the poster boy of conservatism - when he was the radical of all radicals - and the poster boy of gun-toting "self-defence" - when he flatly universally forbade it for any reason whatsoever - and the poster boy of free market capitalism - when his continuous message was to surrender all your earthly treasures and disown your family and friends (for "the End Times" that he predicted would happen within the generation he was talking to, so he was clearly totally wrong on that one and so much for omniscience, eh?) - and so on and so forth.

Biblical Jesus was the exact polar opposite of absolutely everything they stand for. He could not be any more diametrically opposed to every facet of their creed, even if he tried.

Yet they don't comprehend a single problem in labelling themselves his followers. Somehow.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by tufty »

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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by Harlequin »

KlaxonCow wrote:Biblical Jesus was the exact polar opposite of absolutely everything they stand for. He could not be any more diametrically opposed to every facet of their creed, even if he tried.
Yet they don't comprehend a single problem in labelling themselves his followers. Somehow.
Indeed. I have considered putting up a Web site, as written by a conservative nationalist USAmerican, insisting that Christianity is fundamentally anti-American values and should be forbidden throughout the country.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by snaff »

https://www.rt.com/news/451168-yellow-v ... de-father/

Telling to see the EU do nothing while grenades get thrown into crowds of civilians.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by Harlequin »

snaff wrote:https://www.rt.com/news/451168-yellow-vest-hand-grenade-father/
Telling to see the EU do nothing while grenades get thrown into crowds of civilians.
Telling of what? That it has no power over the sovereignty of its member nations?
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by KlaxonCow »

And, come on, are you telling me that the person who threw that grenade knew that they'd take off a protester's hand?

You could certainly argue "recklessness" and "negligence", without doubt, for anyone throwing any grenade with wild abandon - I have no defence for that aspect of things - but the idea that hand-loss was a precise pre-meditated act with malice and forethought is surely straining all credibility here?

It was an accident. A reckless accident, to be sure. But if we could recreate this scenario a million times over then, even if we were trying, we could never have this happen twice.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by gravy »

snaff wrote:https://www.rt.com/news/451168-yellow-vest-hand-grenade-father/

Telling to see the EU do nothing while grenades get thrown into crowds of civilians.
You’re right, there should be an EU army to deal with this kind of thing!
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by gilesgoat »

"Warning grenades are meant to explode once thrown".
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by snaff »

KlaxonCow wrote:And, come on, are you telling me that the person who threw that grenade knew that they'd take off a protester's hand?

You could certainly argue "recklessness" and "negligence", without doubt, for anyone throwing any grenade with wild abandon - I have no defence for that aspect of things - but the idea that hand-loss was a precise pre-meditated act with malice and forethought is surely straining all credibility here?

It was an accident. A reckless accident, to be sure. But if we could recreate this scenario a million times over then, even if we were trying, we could never have this happen twice.
I think that was the second hand. Some numbers here: https://www.thelocal.fr/20190129/france ... t-protests
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by tufty »

It was indeed, the second "gilet jaune" to lose a hand to a police grenade. Given the number of projectiles being fired and thrown at them, however, it's a pretty low injury rate. On the 1st of December, in Paris alone, and only counting the grenades used by the CRS :

7940 CR7 standard CS gas grenades
800 GM2L grenades (7g of high explosive producing 160dB at 5m and a cloud of CS gas)
339 GLI-F4 "stingball" grenades (25g of TNT producing 165dB at 5m and a cloud of CS gas), this was the munition responsible for the latest incident.
776 LBD40 rubber bullets.

that was for an estimated 5000 -10000 protesters. It should be noted that the only european domestic police force using GM2l and GLI-F4 grenades is the French. If only there were some sort of pan-european government that could do something about this sort of thing, eh?
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