EU referendum are you in or out

[venusian]

Deal tempting to make? If a country has products and services to sell, they will sell them. If you have products and services they want, they will buy them.
It doesn't get an fairer than that. Charging tariffs across the board for future negotiation leverage won't help improve trade in the short or long term.

That rather depends on whether you're able to conceive of "improve" as anything other than increasing short term volume. Trade is an unstable system like a giraffe on roller skates. Giving it a shove is only going to injure the beast.

[Barney]

For "technical reasons" I HAD to book a flight in April for Italy .. we'll see what's going to happen with Brexit .. I hope at least in case of "no, nobody can flight" they are going to rembours me ..

I have no idea if you're a properly signed off UK citizen or are still of Italian citizenship - and if the latter then a bigger worry would be whether or not they'll let you back in again.

[gilesgoat]

For "technical reasons" I HAD to book a flight in April for Italy .. we'll see what's going to happen with Brexit .. I hope at least in case of "no, nobody can flight" they are going to rembours me ..

I have no idea if you're a properly signed off UK citizen or are still of Italian citizenship - and if the latter then a bigger worry would be whether or not they'll let you back in again.

I got the "Indefinite Leave to Stay", in theory they can not stop anyone entering in/out, they can only say "you can not stay in uk more than X", no UK citizenship for the moment I am not really thinking about .. it's a long process and I don't really want it to be honest.

[edit] see one of the good things about EU is that you are "an EU citizen" and that's all you need to be in EU, you don't need to worry about any other "crap" like visas and such because "it's EU you are free to move and work and study anywhere within EU" without the need to change anything else "because you are already an EU citizen".

And that's lovely, gives you opportunites everywhere, gives you more freedom of choice and how/where to build your life.

... except in UK ...

[merman]

2 years and 9 months after the vote, and the EU is STILL ASKING the British Government for a credible solution to the Irish border issue.

Meanwhile Boris has a new haircut, and Amber Rudd is about to do a U-turn on benefit changes for pensioners. They are lining up to take over when Maybe steps aside...

[Dio]

2 years and 9 months after the vote, and the EU is STILL ASKING the British Government for a credible solution to the Irish border issue.

There are three:
- Stay in the customs union
- Irish sea border
- Irish land border

If there were any others, the ERG would be shouting it from the ramparts. But there are none and they know it.

[KlaxonCow]

There's also ultimately a fourth solution.

Scotland has an independence referendum and leaves the UK.

This effectively means that "the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" ceases to exist, becoming "the Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland".

(Yes, strictly, the "United" has to be dropped. Because the Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of England are no longer unified, and neither Wales nor Northern Ireland are technically kingdoms unto themselves - so there is no unification of the kingdoms anymore and, technically, that's what the "United" in "United Kingdom" refers to. So that ought to be dropped.)

For certain, the Union Flag has to lose the blue and the diagonals - which comes from the Scottish Saltire - returning it to basically the St.George cross with a few small markings on it, to denote the kingdom's possession of Northern Ireland (but not Wales, as the flag has never symbolically included Wales anyway).

And as there's a number of flags around the world that feature the Union Flag in the top left, then this is going to have a knock-on effect on an awful lot of international heraldry.

The Crown is then also itself faced with an issue. Because the titles "Elizabeth the First of Scotland" and "Elizabeth the Second of England" can no longer be simplified to "Elizabeth the Second" across the UK. She has to revert to "Elizabeth the First of Scotland" in Scotland.

Which is, of course, another kettle of fish all unto itself there. Because though the political union of England and Scotland may cease, the non-political head of state - the unified crowns - remains. So how that'll even work will prove interesting. An independent Scotland might ultimately have to go down a "the Republic of Scotland" route.

And - what I'm, of course, leading up to - this is going to leave Northern Ireland in one hell of a position. Dumped unceremoniously on the front line of Brexit against its will. The Unionists facing the fact that the Union they're loyal to has abandoned them and, in fact, no longer exists with the loss of Scotland (which is, for a lot of Northern Irish, their actual ancestor nation). That they have to swap out their proudly-waving Union Flags for the new "colony of the St.George cross" flag instead.

At best, a land border. At worst, a sea border that literally just abandons them. A possible resumption of "the Troubles". They already have to face that most of the prominent Brexiteers have openly abandoned them - Rees Mogg and the like, happily disowning Northern Ireland as a triviality that they give zero shits about.

And even if the land border is somehow sorted out, it then becomes the weak spot for migration to the UK. "The Jungle" moves from Calais to the Irish land border. Because you might be able to have a "technological border" for delivery trucks - though I'm sceptical of the government ever rolling out an actually functioning computer system, as they've never really succeeded on that front before - but you can't rely on just that to deal with economic migrants and illegal immigration and such.

You can see where I'm slowly leading you to. The potential fourth solution is the reunification of Ireland, as an independent EU nation.

And "the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" becomes "the Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland" becomes "the Kingdom of England and Wales". At which point, expect Wales to take over Scotland's place in demanding independence referenda. And maybe the Celtic regions of England - Cumbria, Cornwall, etc. - start playing up too.

It's unsaid, but those who lead Brexit are basically "little England" nationalists. And they might ultimately get their wish... at the expense of the United Kingdom itself.

And, hey, "Mega-city London" never voted for Brexit either. So it might well be tempted to accelerate its implicit bid for "independent city state" status all the more, further giving even less shits about the horrible disparities between it and the rest of the (now no longer wholly existing) UK.

This ain't even the beginning.

Ironically enough, UKIP will kill the UK that's in their name. They'll destroy the pound sign that they use as their symbol. The "British Empire revivalists" will find the last internal vestiges of that go away on them, as Scotland then Northern Ireland then possibly even Wales, take their turns to leave. And Mega-City London will, at least implicitly, move further towards an "independent city state".

Basically, this will be the disintegration of the UK. Little by little, piece by piece.

That's actually the Christmas these turkeys unwittingly voted for.

[Dio]

That's option A+B. Option B+C is also possible (NI independence) but unlikely.

[VNVObit]

That's option A+B. Option B+C is also possible (NI independence) but unlikely.

NI independence is a non-starter (storming hasn't sat for over 2 years). NI benefits from frictionless border and , when it suited them, aligned with the Republic of Ireland (foot and mouth).

I think the DUP have overplayed their hand and have not reflected the more pragmatic Unionist centre ground who understand the business impact of a border and the potential for a return to a past that's best left in the past.


As for London becoming a city state - not a bad idea except for the fact where does it actually end (M25?). It's a sprawl of a city - best description I've heard is that it is a series of villages connected by roads.

And that really doesn't address the social imbalances within England (parking Wales and Scotland to one side for a moment) where too much focus has been on London & Home Counties and not enough of stimulating the local economies to drive investment and create sustainable businesses.

[Rhythm]

2 years and 9 months after the vote, and the EU is STILL ASKING the British Government for a credible solution to the Irish border issue.

And yet the word from the Tories (and fully supported/unquestioned by our deeply broken media) is that the EU are the ones to blame for refusing to bend to our reasonable requests: Twitter link

[gilesgoat]

2 years and 9 months after the vote, and the EU is STILL ASKING the British Government for a credible solution to the Irish border issue.

And yet the word from the Tories (and fully supported/unquestioned by our deeply broken media) is that the EU are the ones to blame for refusing to bend to our reasonable requests: Twitter link

.. of course it's like that .. it will always be like that, for years to come 'to eternity' it always will boil down 'it wasn't our fault, it was an EU one' ..

Does not even need to be said.

[Little stoned kiwi]

Start a gofundme page for Spain to build another armada.
Surrender to it.
Become an EU member again by extension.
Catholic as well - resolving another difference between the Republic and Northern Ireland.
Profit.

[zip accident]

For certain, the Union Flag has to lose the blue and the diagonals - which comes from the Scottish Saltire - returning it to basically the St.George cross with a few small markings on it,.

Those small markings are the red diagonals, their current white border comes from the scotish part, but essentially it's the blue that would go if Scotland went.

[PFVA]

Three to weeks to go.

I just now notice that the leave takes place on a Friday. That maybe to calm down the markets, the European and the UK.

I notice the US$ is doing well with all this talk of economic probs in Europe and the UK because of Brexit.

BTW we have elections this year besides the EU ones and our conservative (which are the oposition to the government) are already foreseing large economic problems for us due to Brexit meanwhile the government states we are fully ready to deal with it.

[zip accident]

I'm really unsure whether Brexit will actually happen. I think it will be a really bad thing in many ways if it does. I can't understand why more people aren't really upset by the threat of it.

[KlaxonCow]

For certain, the Union Flag has to lose the blue and the diagonals - which comes from the Scottish Saltire - returning it to basically the St.George cross with a few small markings on it,.

Those small markings are the red diagonals, their current white border comes from the scotish part, but essentially it's the blue that would go if Scotland went.

Well, this is how it currently works:



So, removing Scotland, we'd have this:



That is, presuming it's not taken as an opportunity for a complete redesign, running a Blue Peter competition for 8 year olds on "what Britain means to me" and we end up with a stick figure Queen holding a football, with a cup of tea in front of her. Which, cynically, only won because the 8 year old in question is a black girl with leukaemia - so that's ticking all the quota and sentimentally boxes by which the modern world is now actually run, as we long since gave up on facts, taste, decency and common sense a few decades back.

And though I say that with tongue firmly in cheek, what's the betting that it'll actually bloody well happen? As reality has rapidly become more incredible than any satire could imagine these days.

Anyway, yeah, in doing that little mock up, I realised that, as we don't have Scotland's white diagonals, then the Irish red diagonals don't have to be split with the white, so it's just the St.George with red diagonals.