EU referendum are you in or out

Inane baanter or words of wisdom - you decide...
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EU Are you IN or OUT

In
98
77%
Out
21
17%
Undecided (shake it all about)
8
6%
 
Total votes: 127

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KlaxonCow
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by KlaxonCow »

PFVA wrote:The new United Kingdom of England and Wales has to have the dragon, otherwise the Welsh may want to leave. And besides that dragon is very cute.
Nah, that'll never happen.

Remember, Wales is not currently represented on the Union Flag whatsoever. Not one jot nor iota.

And, in heraldry terms, the only sensible place to put the dragon would be in the centre on top of the St.George, but that's an absolute no-no because elements on top of other elements represent primacy. So, according to the flag rules, that would suggest Wales "owns" England.

You could perhaps drop one of Northern Ireland's quarters to place the dragon there. But it can't be the top left - again, suggests primacy, as with all those other flags around the world that have the Union Flag in the top left - and any other lone quarter would look asymmetrically wrong. You could add two dragons in opposite corners (top right and bottom left, to avoid primacy suggestions)... but from no representation whatsoever to double dragons?

(Which would also, aesthetically, look shit as well.)

No chance.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by KlaxonCow »

zip accident wrote:If Brexit was inevitable the stock markets here ought to be panicking, but they're not.
Not necessarily true.

That would require stock markets to have foresight and pre-empt events before they happen.

But, actually, stock markets operate very much in the here and now to events as they happen - within nanoseconds, these days - so the inevitability of Brexit might well cause mass dumping over time, as its consequences play out, but until that actually plays out, they'll continue to react to the situation as it stands, where Brexit has not happened yet.

Basically, in the meantime, there's still money to be made. So they'll continue doing that, right up until events don't let them.
zip accident wrote:There was an EEC thing about BST being stopped or something, what's happening to that? Brexit's chased it off the news, is that deliberate?
Yes, some idiots who don't comprehend how reality works - and what the real problem actually is - were campaigning to switch the UK to Central European Time.

And, yes, in the context the Leave vote and Brexit, they've gone deathly silent, realising just how much on a hiding to nothing they are with that silly idea.

Sorry, but time zones as a political instrument is dumb.

They exist because the Earth is not flat. As the globe turns, and also orbits the Sun, when it gets light and dark varies by longitude and season.

I've covered it before, but I say it's stupid because if you want to operate on CET then just wake up an hour earlier, go to work an hour earlier, have lunch an hour earlier, go home an hour earlier and so forth. Do that and leave everyone else who doesn't need to be on CET alone.

The problem is not the clocks. The problem is our insistence on a universal homogeneous reaction to what the clock says.

In the midst of the campaign for switching to CET, I saw one of their campaigners argue that, if only the UK was operating on CET, then our tourism industry would make an extra billion a year. He thought this was a killer argument. But this actually just left me thinking that they're idiots. I mean, if you know that opening and closing an hour earlier would net an extra billion then why aren't you doing this already? Why do you need an Act of Parliament for this?

You know where your signs say "opening hours: 9 to 5"? Just change that to "opening hours: 8 to 4" instead. Extra billion. Sorted.

Why does everyone else - who has no such requirements - need to be permanently disturbed in their routines?

There was talk of rush hour traffic. But this only emphasises my point. "Rush hour" is an issue because we insist on cramming all commuting into an hour every morning. Have you seen how otherwise dead the vast majority of roads are outside rush hour?

The problem is not when do we all cram onto the roads at the exact same time - and then wonder why they're all log jammed - but the fact that we weirdly insist on doing this in the first place. If some folks went to work at 8am and others went to work at 9am and others went to work at 10am - and the kids went to school at 10am too, as it has been scientifically shown that this would be beneficial to those going through puberty who have changing sleep patterns - then it's not "rush hour" but "rush 3 hours".

The load is more balanced. Everyone experiences a third less traffic. Problem solved.

It matters not what it says on the clock. We could, for example, replace the numbers 1 - 12 on the clock face with the letters A-L instead. It's "G" o'clock. It's half past "C". Or we could name the hours after the signs of the Zodiacs - seeing as there's conveniently the same number of them - and I'll see you for lunch at half past Virgo.

What matters is our reaction to these mere symbols. The idea that everyone must be arriving at work or school at the exact same time - be that 9am or "K" or "Saggitarius" or whatever you want to call it - is the actual source of our woes. Or, in the case of those who want to be on CET to match their trading partners, the fact that they're not going to work at the exact same time as their suppliers / customers - but the actual answer to that, of course, is just to change your working hours so that you are.

As for the arguments about driving home in the dark. Well, all a clock change can do is shift it an hour one way or the other. But the variation in when twilight starts and ends over the year is way more than one hour.

And, in terms of lighting conditions, twilight is worse than night anyway. When it's fully night, folks turn on their headlights. But, during twilight, it's a mixed bag and some folks have and some folks haven't. Some of the street lights are on and others aren't. Dusk is also horrible because the Sun's down low near the horizon and, thus, potentially drivers are having to look towards the Sun (and as they drive around, changing orientation, sometimes they do have it in front of them and sometimes not, and as you take a corner, it can suddenly catch you unawares). Basically, we have those sun visors you can pull down for twilight - you don't need them at night or during the day. The transition - because it's neither one nor the other at twilight - is the real issue. And unless you're proposing constantly changing the clocks by 6 hours either way during the course of the year, not just a single hour, then there will be some point during the year when it'll be twilight as you go to work or come home.

This, to my mind, though, is symptomatic of the same kind of ignorant mentality behind Brexit.

Blame the wrong thing - the clock, "brown people", etc. - for all your woes, in a "scapegoat" red herring fashion, and then rush headlong into "fixing" the thing that was never, in fact, ever the cause of your troubles in the first place. Then stand around wondering why nothing ever seems to improve.

Jobs are getting scarcer and more unreliable because of increasing automation. The economy is down the shitter because the bankers fucked us over in 2008 (and our politicians have no fucking idea how to manage the economy, clearly, as every political stripe, in their turn, has taken their turn to do the wrong thing and screw it all up).

And none of this is being fixed, as our politicians are still fighting some ideological battle over Marxism - a century or so out of date - and won't even acknowledge the previous two causes as existing, let alone the thing that actually needs fixing.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by PFVA »

I'm sorry to announce that Brexit was thrown back stage on TV news because Christiano scored 3 goals thanks to which Juventus (ITA) eliminated the Atletico (Madrid) from whatever championship. I'm reaching my capacity limit of hearing 'GOAL' being screamed in Italian, in Portuguese, Spanish, English, over and over again on TV channels besides being informed of Cristiano's age, and methods he uses to keep himself in form such as taking a bath in ice cubes after the games.

At this rate i'll start missing hearing May, Corbyn, the guy with yellow hair, Farage, Macron, Merkell, Tusk, and several other people talking about Brexit, and how our consulate in the UK will be ready on April 1st to deal with the chaos, which will be amazing since they have trouble dealing with day to day non-chaos issues, and how the financial support program to business which depend on exporting to the UK will be immediately implemented on March 29.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by Cloudane »

All as predicted so far. I wasn't expecting amendment A to pass, even further strengthening the "fuck no" against no deal, but none of it matters anyway as it's non-binding and unless any of the appropriate reasons to extend article 50 can command a majority in parliament (spoiler alert, they can't) then leaving without a deal remains the default position enshrined by law on the 29th.

Dem odds have lengthened, like...
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by gilesgoat »

Cloudane wrote:All as predicted so far. I wasn't expecting amendment A to pass, even further strengthening the "fuck no" against no deal, but none of it matters anyway as it's non-binding and unless any of the appropriate reasons to extend article 50 can command a majority in parliament (spoiler alert, they can't) then leaving without a deal remains the default position enshrined by law on the 29th.

Dem odds have lengthened, like...
It did pass for a very little margin, the no-deal been very narrowly avoided !
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by Cloudane »

The majority on the main vote was only fairly narrow because coward May decided to three line whip the party against it at the last second after previously saying it'd be a free vote...
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by Harlequin »

The Speaker stated that he might have to rule on whether the Government can repeatedly put the same motion to the House. Why have no Brexit-supporting MPs complained that putting something to a second (or third, or eleventh) vote is a betrayal of democracy?
Cloudane wrote:The majority on the main vote was only fairly narrow because coward May decided to three line whip the party against it at the last second after previously saying it'd be a free vote...
After telling Corbyn at PMQs that she would herself would be voting for it.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by Harlequin »

Cloudane wrote:The majority on the main vote was only fairly narrow because coward May decided to three line whip the party against it at the last second after previously saying it'd be a free vote...
Oh, and five cabinet ministers abstained from the vote while one joined sixteen other Conservative MPs in voting for the motion, despite that three line whip to vote against it.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by merman »

Harlequin wrote:The Speaker stated that he might have to rule on whether the Government can repeatedly put the same motion to the House. Why have no Brexit-supporting MPs complained that putting something to a second (or third, or eleventh) vote is a betrayal of democracy?
Cloudane wrote:The majority on the main vote was only fairly narrow because coward May decided to three line whip the party against it at the last second after previously saying it'd be a free vote...
After telling Corbyn at PMQs that she would herself would be voting for it.
She can't even get the Chief Whip to follow his own three-line whip.

So regardless of the outcome today, Theresa Maybe will put HER deal - defeated twice, with two of the three biggest margins against in Parliamentary history - to a THIRD vote on Wednesday 20th, before her next EU meeting on the 21st.

When she says "vote for my deal or Brexit is lost" my hope that this whole sorry mess will be overturned grows...
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by zip accident »

merman wrote:When she says "vote for my deal or Brexit is lost" my hope that this whole sorry mess will be overturned grows...
Yeah, that's the way I'm reading it.

I wouldn't, but the stock market ought to be going bananas if they didn't think a fix was in, and they really aren't. I can't believe that the stock market would be that happy about any Brexit, let alone a no deal Brexit, and algorithms or no, people own the money and would be giving the longer term orders.

Of course, if Labour was 100% behind Brexit, there would be enough rogue Tories to make it certain, but I don't think they can be.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by Barney »

So if "No deal" is off the table - and permanently so - and May's deal is dead in the water then they have two options. Extend A50, or cancel Brexit. If they fail to get an extension (possible, certainly as all 27 states have to agree to one) then the only other option is to cancel Brexit completely.

Of course, "No deal" is not off the table - if they fail to get an extension and don't cancel then we will crash out without a deal regardless of whether or not they think they won't.

What a mess.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by KlaxonCow »

So, having a Second Referendum is a "betrayal of democracy" for asking the people a new question on the future direction of Brexit, in light of the emerging omnishambles of incompetence that has since occurred, as possibly the only way to break a clear arithmetical deadlock in Parliament...

...but May asking MPs to vote three times on the exact same deal - because, no, there was no material difference the second time around and it seems impossible, in 6 days, for any material difference to emerge before the third vote either - until she gets the answer she wants is just fine and dandy, and not at all hypocritical?

Bearing in mind that the first vote was the largest government defeat in recorded history. And only in the context of the all-time worst defeat ever could a defeat of 149 votes - when the three-line whip was engaged!! - not seem quite so bad, but that would have easily taken the scalp of any other Prime Minister, if we weren't stuck with May because she's the only one idiot enough to pick up the poison chalice of implementing Brexit.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by WiteWulf »

I haven't got a fucking clue what is going on any more :cry:
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by PFVA »

Barney wrote:So if "No deal" is off the table - and permanently so - and May's deal is dead in the water then they have two options. Extend A50, or cancel Brexit. If they fail to get an extension (possible, certainly as all 27 states have to agree to one) then the only other option is to cancel Brexit completely.

Of course, "No deal" is not off the table - if they fail to get an extension and don't cancel then we will crash out without a deal regardless of whether or not they think they won't.

What a mess.
In the end, and after some fussing, the 27 will vote for the extension. Among others the exporting business are putting pressure to extend it.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by rowan »

One of the things that'll piss off businesses with an extension, is that pretty much every business which is even slightly affected by Brexit has assumed they must be prepared for hard brexit and have been stockpiling to mitigate import/export delays in the event of that.

They aren't going to keep all that buffer stock for any longer than necessary which means they'll use it up ASAP and may well have to go through all this exercise again.
Still better than a no-deal, mind, but all this turmoil is consuming huge amounts of money within organisations. Immediately, no customers will expect to pay any different but it will all filter in over the years.
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