EU referendum are you in or out

[(o)(o)]

Bah, last night was another fuckfest (and not in the good way). Genuinely becoming resigned to "No Deal" being the actual result in a few days time.

Fuck hoping for a General Election. Unless anyone campaigns on a platform of sorting the wider problems in British "democracy" out then I'm not fucking interested. I've watched the country get fucked by Tories all my life whilst Labour have done interim bumming... they both need ousting, stat. We need proper, policy-led proportional representation from parties who'll think longer than just getting re-elected next election

Three points :

1. AV was bullshit we need PR
2. You are conflating 2019 Labour with New Labour (a Tory trick)
3. Democracy is at a low, but it and Brexit are not the be all and end all :

Are you “not fucking interested” in any domestic policies ?

NHS
Schooling
Policing
Job security
Wages
Support for disabled
Justice system
Prisons
Regressive taxation
Public services
Rail charges
Etc etc

Are you a LD supporter per chance?

PS the Tory Party are literally killing people

[Rhythm]

Three points :

1. AV was bullshit we need PR
2. You are conflating 2019 Labour with New Labour (a Tory trick)
3. Democracy is at a low, but it and Brexit are not the be all and end all :

Are you “not fucking interested” in any domestic policies ?

NHS
Schooling
Policing
Job security
Wages
Support for disabled
Justice system
Prisons
Regressive taxation
Public services
Rail charges
Etc etc

Are you a LD supporter per chance?

PS the Tory Party are literally killing people

I'm not LD, no. And yes I'm "conflating" current Labour with 2019 Labour. JC, for all his talk, has done fuck all to show they'd be any different if Labour remained in their current state.

1 - damn right. But if you're going to tell me that Labour and Conservatives would have been in favour of PR then.... just nah. AV was already a compromised position and they still railed against it
2 - I'll admit, when JC came forward my ears pricked up. I thought things might change, that the party might swivel and start to look appealing after the disaster(s) they oversaw in the 90s and early 2000s. But things didn't. Instead the party got more divided, more argumentative, more clusterfucked. I'm only 42, I've lived through mainly scummy Tory years and the painful Labour ones. I believe JC has been hugely hard done by in the UK media but I don't believe he'd be doing any better right now. And nor do I think the country would be better off if Labour ended up in charge. UNLESS... Labour (Nu) and Labour (2019) broke apart and Labour 2019 were able to somehow wrestle control with a true left-wing government.
3 - Brexit's not a be-all, no. In fact it's been a huge resource suck that we frankly could have done without.

The shitshow of our taking out our frustrations on the EU has happened precisely because Labour and Tory governments have responded incredibly poorly to local and global issues. And part of that response is because we have this solid divide of a "them and us" political system. A true PR government could have helped work to create cross party consensus on important issues instead of rushing towards headline-grabbing "we need to win the next election" policies that end up having no substance.

Yes, people are dying under the Tory government but TBH I have no idea what to believe on that side of things any more. I read that child poverty is at a record high but then I find out what defines child poverty and think "hmm, maybe the bare stats aren't the full story?". I read that jobs are at a record high but know full well figures get fudged because 1 hour of zero hour work takes you off the list. I read that the economy is doing amazing well but then, why wouldn't it? Markets, in general, rise. I also know that in the main, the general standard of living, through all these issues, rises for all. So "poor" now isn't the same as "poor" 10, 20, 30 years ago. I watch government after government hold emergency meetings to go after the headlines (stabbings, terrorism, momo) whilst ignoring actual issues that affect real numbers of people up and down the country (inactivity and corresponding health issues through poor city planning, dozens of road deaths and hundreds of serious injuries every fucking week).

Past experience is no predictor of future performance, I know that. But after watching the seesaw parliamentary system running for a few decades and observing it running headlong into the wall of faster supply of information/propaganda.... it's not fit for purpose at all. It's just not. I'm sorry if you're a Labour supporter and you think I'm talking the party down but.... nah, fuck it, I am. But I'm also talking down Tories and any other party who doesn't stand for actual political reform.

[tufty]

Well said, that man. You get my vote.

[Dio]

I think JC has clearly demonstrated his Labour will be very different to 2000s era Labour. But for all Blair's faults, he operated a government that was as competent in executing government policy as any we've had in my lifetime (whatever I think of said policy), and while the current incumbent of the Labour seat may have some more palatable policies and fewer unpalatable ones, he notably hasn't demonstrated the ability to organise a piss-up in a brewery.

I mean, put it simply: any opposition leader who isn't 30 points ahead in the polls of the shower who are running it right now (who also clearly couldn't organise said drinking session in the aforementioned brew-house) is doing it wrong.

I'm not absolutely sure at this point, but I'm increasingly leaning towards the idea that policies I mildly disagree with competently delivered are a better idea than a total shitshow with its heart in the right place.

[Cloudane]

May announces that she needs a bit more time to try (and fail) to work with the leader of the opposition to come up with a plan they can agree onbeat Corbyn around the head with her Withdrawal Agreement until he agrees to support it.

More of the same..... if the EU have any sense, they'll tell us to piss off.

[zip accident]

More of the same..... if the EU have any sense, they'll tell us to piss off.

Why would they do that, if they keep on giving us extensions, eventually we'll come back.

[Cloudane]

We can dream...

[phattslagg]

I

I mean, put it simply: any opposition leader who isn't 30 points ahead in the polls of the shower who are running it right now

Yeah, a lot of centrists seem to be saying this. But it isn’t true. To be 30 points ahead, they’d need to be Tory-lite, willing to dance to Murdoch’s fiddle, come across as having better leadership qualities than the incumbent PM, and be seen as someone who can sort things out without threatening the establishment in any way. So - not really an opposition at all. Even then, I think they’d struggle to get that far ahead nowadays - the last decade has seen people become far more entrenched in their views - I’m really not sure there are enough floaters anymore for this kind of lead to open up.

[Dio]

30 points is an exaggeration and you rightly call it unfair. But your response smells of excuses, particularly the blame-the-establishment point, and as for "come across as having better leadership skills" surely the onus is on him to prove the existence of leadership skills by, um, leading (which, so far, he hasn't done well at all).

Bouncing around at similar poll ratings as undoubtedly, obviously, utterly the worst government in UK history must surely be a total embarrassment.

It is also possible that the reason centrist parties can do better in the polls is because they are actually more popular. (I say this as someone who knows his natural socialism is to the left of the centre of gravity of the country).

[Dio]

... but who does believe socialism can be made popular, if it's done really well.

[phattslagg]

It can’t be made popular without the active participation of our MSM, and if you think that any true socialist would have been treated any better than Corbyn has been, you’re mistaken.

[Dio]

If you think Corbyn is doing absolutely the best that could be done by any socialist in his position, I posit that you are the mistaken one.

[phattslagg]

If you think Corbyn is doing absolutely the best that could be done by any socialist in his position, I posit that you are the mistaken one.

That’s part of the problem. No one suggests that he’s infallible - it’s really only his detractors who say that his supporters believe that he’s some kind of messiah.

There is very much a double-standard when it comes to expectations of left vs right politicians. Right wingers can seemingly fuck a pig’s head, whilst grabbing it by the pussy and waving a burning £50 note at a homeless person, and it’s all just waved away. Anyone on the left has to live up to impossible standards.

Trust me - no one on the left is going to get a fair ride in this country, unless they sell themselves out to the right people (see Jess “potty-mouth” Phillips).

[Dio]

You may be right, but I stand by the point that better (probably much better) could be done than is being done today.

[phattslagg]

I don’t disagree that things could be better - one always has to hope this to be the case.

However, in reality, we never get the ideal.

To me, it’s like the standard “The NHS is inefficient, therefore we need to get rid of more staff, and put more of its services to private tender” line that the RW churn out. There can never be 100% efficiency in any system, let alone one as complex and gargantuan as the NHS - so it will always be possible to claim that “it could be more efficient - ergo the NHS is inefficient”.

Corbyn may not be the best leader of the opposition, but he’s the best we’ve got, and he’s been getting a lot better at it, recently.

Meanwhile, some of our troops have been using his image as target practice. This is entirely down to the smears concerning his loyalty to this country. No one can tell me that the level of state-sanctioned propaganda against him was justified - especially in the light of this disturbing footage.