EU referendum are you in or out

[Ollie]

Amazing isn't it... UKIP gets absolutely trashed, the Tories get absolutely trashed, pro-Brexit Labour take a hit as well... meanwhile Lib Dems and Greens, overtly pro-EU and on the side of revoking, get massive gains. And the Tory response is "hmm, I guess they're telling us we need to Get On With Brexit". It's complete an utter delusion on a level that that only May and the Tories are capable of.

Corbyn & McDonnell said it as well...

[gilesgoat]

So what's goign on now ?

It would appear they still can NOT arrive to any agreement !

Yet "at the cost of destroying the universe" they want to deliver brexit.

My feeling is that "maybe there's no way to cancel this brexit" or definitely nor Tory nor Labour wants to.

Ergo : don't vote them, vote someone else ?

[Barney]

I'm a fee-paying member of the Labour party. I'm watching them with great interest right now, and if they don't get their shit together I'll be voting for someone else. Seriously, what the fuck are they playing at?

[Cloudane]

Doesn't help that Corbyn is clearly pro-Brexit as well, as he seems to be part of Team "no second referendum no matter what" (because he, May and co are afraid it might get cancelled if the public was asked again)

I won't be voting Labour as long as he's in charge, it's time to give the Lib Dems another chance.

[gilesgoat]

Doesn't help that Corbyn is clearly pro-Brexit as well, as he seems to be part of Team "no second referendum no matter what" (because he, May and co are afraid it might get cancelled if the public was asked again)

I won't be voting Labour as long as he's in charge, it's time to give the Lib Dems another chance.

Mind you I've done the form quite a while ago to get the right to vote in these elections, still waiting to get a reply, so far at the moment I can't vote.

[phattslagg]

Doesn't help that Corbyn is clearly pro-Brexit as well, as he seems to be part of Team "no second referendum no matter what" (because he, May and co are afraid it might get cancelled if the public was asked again)

I won't be voting Labour as long as he's in charge, it's time to give the Lib Dems another chance.

Corbyn is not afraid of no Brexit, per se - he just understands what so many remain voters don’t: you can’t undo the vote with another one. Yes, technically, a win for Remain in a second referendum would mean no immediate Brexit, but if you think it will put the monster back in the box, you’re very much mistaken. It would, most likely, result in Nigel Farage PM within a single election cycle.

[Harlequin]

I won't be voting Labour as long as he's in charge, it's time to give the Lib Dems another chance.

The LibDems and Greens appear to be the only choices for me.

Corbyn is not afraid of no Brexit, per se - he just understands what so many remain voters don’t: you can’t undo the vote with another one. Yes, technically, a win for Remain in a second referendum would mean no immediate Brexit, but if you think it will put the monster back in the box, you’re very much mistaken. It would, most likely, result in Nigel Farage PM within a single election cycle.

What happened to Party democracy? Did the Labour membership not overwhelmingly vote for a second referendum?

[phattslagg]

What happened to Party democracy? Did the Labour membership not overwhelmingly vote for a second referendum?

Policy was decided at conference. It hasn't changed.

[Harlequin]

What happened to Party democracy? Did the Labour membership not overwhelmingly vote for a second referendum?

Policy was decided at conference. It hasn't changed.

So Corbyn will still support campaigning for what he sees as a Farage for PM option if he cannot get a general election, then, as decided at conference?

[phattslagg]

I guess so - although I doubt he’d be quite as pessimistic as I am about it. Quite honestly, even as someone who was strongly pro-Remain, I am more comfortable with the idea of a soft Brexit now than I am with the risk of unleashing a neo-fascist backlash if we don’t Brexit at all. Farage is already making big noises about “going beyond Brexit” and “taking down the two-party system”. He is our Trump - he has the exact same machinations behind him, and we are in serious danger of losing all the things we have fought for to him and his ilk.

[Cloudane]

Corbyn is not afraid of no Brexit, per se - he just understands what so many remain voters don’t: you can’t undo the vote with another one. Yes, technically, a win for Remain in a second referendum would mean no immediate Brexit, but if you think it will put the monster back in the box, you’re very much mistaken. It would, most likely, result in Nigel Farage PM within a single election cycle.

Doubt it.

Is it so hard for Brexiteers to imagine that the public might have changed their mind now that they know more about what they were being asked? In which case your lot can scream and shout as much as they like, if the Will Of The People (TM) is to put this shitshow to bed and remain after all. And if the public votes for some specific form of Brexit a second time then fair enough, at least they'd have a firm mandate Get On With It (TM) and know WHAT they're getting on with, instead of bickering over whether it should be hard, soft or scrambled and getting extension after extension...

Again I'd also point out that even Farage said during the campaign that if remain won by a narrow margin he'd campaign for a second vote. So it's pure hypocrisy. I get it, no ardent Brexiteer wants to take that risk, understandable... but at least admit that's why, rather than all he scare mongering that democracy would collapse or the country would slide into Nazism or whatever if people were asked to reconfirm this is what they want.

[Harlequin]

Corbyn is not afraid of no Brexit, per se - he just understands what so many remain voters don’t: you can’t undo the vote with another one. Yes, technically, a win for Remain in a second referendum would mean no immediate Brexit, but if you think it will put the monster back in the box, you’re very much mistaken. It would, most likely, result in Nigel Farage PM within a single election cycle.

Doubt it.

Is it so hard for Brexiteers to imagine that the public might have changed their mind now that they know more about what they were being asked? In which case your lot can scream and shout as much as they like, if the Will Of The People (TM) is to put this shitshow to bed and remain after all. … at least admit that's why, rather than all he scare mongering that democracy would collapse or the country would slide into Nazism or whatever if people were asked to reconfirm this is what they want.

I think that phattslagg is, or at least was, more of a Remainer than a Brexiteer.

[KlaxonCow]

I won't be voting Labour as long as he's in charge, it's time to give the Lib Dems another chance.

The LibDems and Greens appear to be the only choices for me.

Worth remembering that these are the European elections, which actually use a form of proportional representation, so you can potentially throw votes at both of them.

Though the Lib Dems are acting as the de facto primary "pro-Remain" party in polling thus far, so it might make strategic sense to not split the vote and give them the primary votes.

And then wait to see how the Brexit party and UKIP might split their own "pro-Brexit" vote.

I do wonder how this will go, as there's so many variables in play. One of which is that, if we are going to Brexit at Halloween, then this election is kind of pointless. They'll barely take their seats before we're out. So to what degree will people just not bother - in either direction - as they don't see the point.

Then there's the aspect that this is effectively - particularly with the Brexit party - turning into a "second referendum by proxy". So, actually, one can see the strongly pro-Brexit and pro-Remain folks coming out in numbers, just to put that symbolic stamp on it all.

Which feeds into the very interesting observation - not that Theresa May saw it, as she just weirdly interpreted it as "people want us to make Brexit happen" - that the local elections in England and North Ireland, where the Tories horridly haemorrhaged votes on an alarming level, had all those votes not go to UKIP (the natural party of people actually saying "we want you to make Brexit happen") or Labour, but to the Lib Dems and Greens and "other". They went over to the overtly pro-EU parties, who've been perfectly clear that they'd love to cancel this shit altogether, if they could.

So, this'll prove interesting as that suggests that there's been - since the referendum, in light of the mess of Brexit and people more and more discovering how Brexit is not remotely going to be what was promised in the referendum at all - some movement in public opinion. A significant movement? Who knows? But, remember, the referendum was 48 to 52% - within a margin of error, very close to a tie breaker. So it doesn't really take that much movement to flip that over to a 52 / 48% in favour of Remain.

There's a reason that the eurosceptics are avoiding a Second Referendum like the plague - as there's a good chance that it would cancel Brexit altogether. They barely won and shit has gone horribly wrong ever since (to historically unprecedented levels in places), so they would seem right not to want to risk it.

And as this would only be a "Second Referendum by proxy" - not a real referendum - then you can definitely vote for your ideal, to make the point, as none of it will actually change anything for real, so there's no point in being pragmatic or strategic in your voting preferences here, as you might be tempted to do in a real Second Referendum that could actually have the power to change things.

It's too complicated an equation to make any safe predictions in any direction, I feel.

Other than to, you know, quote the ancient Chinese proverb: "We live in interesting times".

[phattslagg]

I think that phattslagg is, or at least was, more of a Remainer than a Brexiteer.

Glad someone was paying attention

I hate Brexit. I hate everyone who pushed for it and I struggle not to hate anyone who voted for it.

But, it is what it is, and Remain lost. I, too, grieved for most of the last two years, but I’ve been watching how the hardcore pro-Remainers have been going about trying to stop it, and they are a bloody embarrassment - Cloudane’s take on what I wrote being a prime example. The holier-than-thou, patronising disdain with which they dismiss all the people who voted Leave is precisely why they have gained so little traction since the vote.

Unfortunately, the reality seems to be that, thanks to the intransigence of the 2nd-goers, we will now end up leaving with no deal

[phattslagg]

remember, the referendum was 48 to 52% - within a margin of error, very close to a tie breaker. So it doesn't really take that much movement to flip that over to a 52 / 48% in favour of Remain.

This would be a terrible impasse in which to find ourselves - Brexiteers would simply dismiss it as “well, you didn’t respect our 4-point win - we don’t respect yours”. The Brexit party would entrench itself in our political landscape such that we will never be able to move on.

I honestly think that the least worst option at this point is exactly what Labour have been proposing: honour the result, but try to retain a close working relationship with Europe.

Cameron fucked us all by calling this cursed vote in the first place - it can never be undone. I’ve said it before in this thread, I think, but it’s like he lanced a boil that is now threatening to kill us with sepsis. There is no complete cure, but an amputation might save our life. Yes, we end up missing a limb, but it needn’t be the end. The #FBPE, hardcore Remain lot would have us believe we can go back in time and choose not to lance it.