EU referendum are you in or out

[Ollie]

Even though i dislike Boris if there is a precedent open condemning politicians who lie or invent figures when campaigning for something or another that is going to affect a large number of them.

Good. Why shouldn't it?

[Barney]

Personally, I'm of the increasing opinion that we don't deserve to be in the EU, and we should crash out with no deal so, as Cloudane put it, we can grow up as a country. It's gonna hurt like hell, but it might be the only way to stop some of this racist bollocks.

But why should me and my family hurt because of those fuckers?

I really, really wish that there was an outcome that wouldn't hurt anyone. I voted remain, and still would do so - as so many would. When we do eventually leave, I'm pretty certain that I'm going to suffer too, along with everyone else. If we don't come out then there will almost certainly be rioting from the "cranially challenged" (cheers Tufty!) which will also cause a lot of harm - not just to us, but to all those who are visiting our little island. And worse, it will likely be tacitly endorsed by the dog-whistling folks that are invested in our exit.

Crashing out with no deal might be the best thing we can do. Not economically or culturally, but at least educationally. But there's no way out without some level of hurt, sadly.

If not for this:

it might be the only way to stop some of this racist bollocks.

It won't.

Firstly, as has been pointed out, leaving the EU, especially with a crash out, is going to result in more immigration from extra-EU countries, particularly the subcontinent and sub-saharan Africa. This will not go unnoticed by, and will will certainly not go down well with, the cranially challenged racists who voted Brexit.

Secondly, no Brexit is going to end well, and this is going to become glaringly obvious from about 30 milliseconds after we actually leave. For the aforementioned cranially challenged brexit maniacs, the fault for this will be with the EU, for having "not played fair", "remoaners", for not believing hard enough and generally being traitors, and any EU citizens who haven't scarpered just for being forrins.

Thirdly, racism is becoming normalised in the western world. The far right parties, who once counted only on the support of skinheads with swastikas tattooed on their recessive foreheads, are on the brink of gaining, and in some cases already have, political power at national level. Latent racism is out and proud.

If you think the situation is toxic now, wait until the Brexit train really starts going off the rails. I expect people to die.

And sadly I think you're right. And yes, there will almost certainly be loss of life.

I don't want to live here anymore. I just want to get along with everyone and enjoy my life. I work for a european company, and am seriously considering leaving while we still can - the mrs is positively pleading me to.

[gilesgoat]

I guess who's going to be your next master friend of UK then ...


Donald Trump has said he "may" meet Brexit Party leader Nigel Farage and Conservative MP Boris Johnson during next week's state visit to the UK.

The US president described them as "friends" and "good guys".

[VNVObit]

The then Mayor of London was economical with the actualité in not accounting for the rebate... who knew?

Googled: Boris ceased being Mayor on May 9th. I'm not sure when he first claimed £350M p/w but the 'battle bus' bearing the legend was unveiled on the 11th. If not before the 10th, what public office?

He is MP for Uxbridge & Ruislip and gas held the seat since 2015

[Absolute_Zero]

The then Mayor of London was economical with the actualité in not accounting for the rebate... who knew?

Googled: Boris ceased being Mayor on May 9th. I'm not sure when he first claimed £350M p/w but the 'battle bus' bearing the legend was unveiled on the 11th. If not before the 10th, what public office?

He is MP for Uxbridge & Ruislip and gas held the seat since 2015

I tend to think of 'Public Office' as being in an governmental position. If we're going to send every MP that has played fast and loose with numbers/stats/meanings [here gross not net] to court/jail then the house will empty in short order.

Everybody tells porky pies... save perhaps that character in a Hanks movie which escapes me.

[PFVA]

Thirdly, racism is becoming normalised in the western world. The far right parties, who once counted only on the support of skinheads with swastikas tattooed on their recessive foreheads, are on the brink of gaining, and in some cases already have, political power at national level. Latent racism is out and proud.

We are an exception to that at least for now. The reason is, racism is a crime in this country. It has been since the 1990s. And even though there is racism, the political parties, media, leaders of some kind or another cannot go around preaching it because they can and will be arrested and charged. Even our nationalists don't make that speech at least in public. What they say about immigration is always that we don't have enough jobs to receive that many people, but they don't say anything against muslims, black people, asians, people with accents, gays or whatever. It's a crime, point.

Maybe if other nations would have done the same back then or even earlier we wouldn't have this problem now.

[zip accident]

Everybody tells porky pies... save perhaps that character in a Hanks movie which escapes me.

Lies are bad.

[tufty]

Everybody tells porky pies... save perhaps that character in a Hanks movie which escapes me.

Lies are bad.

Particularly when coming from those holding (or wanting to hold) high office, those who we are asked to trust.

This is why the Peterborough by-election is happening. MP gets a pretty trivial speeding ticket. MP lies about who was driving in order to avoid the points / fine. Lie is shown to be a lie. MP lies again, this time trying to get other people to lie for her. Lie is again shown to be a lie. She is eventually sentenced to 3 months suspended (instead of 3 points on her license), but refuses to give up her seat. Is kicked out of the party. Still refuses to give up her seat, and becomes only sitting MP to ever have to wear an electronic tag. Is finally kicked out (another first) after getting on for 50% of the voting population sign a petition to have her ousted.

If caught in a lie, especially with regards to deceiving (or trying to deceive) the population in order to make a political gain, MPs should be out on their ears. Instantly. Same for fraud, corruption, etc. Sure, it might mean westminster loses a few before actually telling the truth catches on, but would that be such a bad thing?

[KlaxonCow]

Personally, I'm of the increasing opinion that we don't deserve to be in the EU, and we should crash out with no deal so, as Cloudane put it, we can grow up as a country. It's gonna hurt like hell, but it might be the only way to stop some of this racist bollocks.

Bollocks.

As Tufty has covered, appeasement absolutely 100% will NOT stop the racism. It will throw petrol onto the fire - and, yes, it may well cost lives.

There will not be "peace in our time" from such a course of action.

As TFO rightly asks, why should those who had no part in this - which, at a minimum, is 48% of the entire country who voted Remain, where there's some evidence that figure might now be revised upwards, and if we're talking "no deal" then even many of the Leave voters would ask to have no part in that either - suffer for the existence of imperfections in the human animal?

"Deserve" has nothing whatsoever to do with it. Stop with this silly fatalistic self-flagellation.

Because it just won't help. The "escape goat" never really did carry your "sins" away. Lamenting that we're all pieces of shit - however accurate - does not, unto itself, solve a single gorram thing.

Woe is fucking you. There's zero point appealing to the mercy of the universe. It has none. It has no capacity whatsoever to care, because it's not sentient and thinking.

Fall to your knees and scream "WHY?!?" at the sky. It will never answer you. There is no answer to even give.

Fatalism wins you nothing. The instinct to anthropomorphically appeal to higher powers stops at the human race, because there simply is no higher power.

If we are ever to get out of this shit, then we ourselves must dig ourselves out. By our own devices. No assistance will ever be forthcoming.

Making innocents suffer - who had nothing whatsoever to do with these decisions - is intolerably unjust.

Even making the idiot racists that voted for it suffer won't help - it's in our collective suffering at "austerity", the banking crisis shafting the world economy, increased automation (not immigrants) stealing all the jobs and "globalism" ensuring that there's absolutely nowhere to hide from this all, that's caused all this shit in the first place.

Conservatism and right-wing politics has risen, because it's "siege mode" politics. Defend the borders, maintain the status quo, reject the outsider, protect your treasures from the tax collector. It's circling the wagons around what's yours to keep it safe. To guard your treasures. To rewind the clock to "everything was better, back when everything was worse". Back to the care-free days of childhood. Which, in truth, we falsely recall as being "better" but they really weren't - my childhood was the '80s with the threat of nuclear annihilation hanging over everything and horrid unemployment issues as Thatcher destroyed society - it's just because we were kids. Kids live a charmed life. The world was no less terrible then than now, but you failed to notice it because kids play games and dance to happy music, oblivious to the suffering of their god-like parents in scraping by to give you some semblance of that childhood.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Two sufferings do not make a bliss.

These people desperately voted for Brexit - for their populist "saviours" - because they were already suffering horribly in silence, as politicians played their silly games, ignoring it all.

The coming spectre of automation is a massive issue for humanity. The workers of the world can hardly unite, if there's no fucking work left for any human to do. And how can you "lift yourself up by your bootstraps" when there's no employment left?

This is game changing. Revolutionary. It implicitly undermines a fundamental pillar of society - the very concept of money itself. And yet no politician acknowledges it's even a thing. They never mention it. Fingers in their ears, "la la la I'm not listening".

More suffering won't fix this. Suffering's what caused all this shit in the first place.

And I very much dispute that we can "grow up" as a country, without facing down our demons.

In your childhood, what most caused you to mature? Being punished by your parents to "go to your room", or coming face-to-face with our inner demons - friends turning out to be traitorous arseholes, the fact that if you don't get yourself a job then you'll end up homeless, health shocks (or just being middle aged) that makes you realise your own coming mortality?

Nah, punishment teaches you fuck all. Reality slapping you in the face with its big cock and telling you to just "suck it" - and the realisation that this is what life actually is, and there's absolutely nothing you can do. That shit is what scares you shitless, and makes you cling to whatever piddling little security you can ever hold onto.

So I call "bullshit".

It might seem virtuous and humble to defer oneself to the fates of the gods, but it's actually just bollocks. Pragmatically helps no-one and nothing. Submitting to the roll of the dice, as if your subservience will engender some mercy out of a spinning inanimate cube - yeah, exactly, it's just a horrible misidentification of agency where there simply isn't any.

All it's about is forgiving yourself - and if you can't forgive then you'll forget, sticking it all on the back of the "escape goat" and send it away with all your sins. Because out of sight is out of mind. "The darkies did it!" - now send the darkies away and all will be well.

But, unfortunately, it might be "out of mind" - as you try to forget it's even a thing - but it's never "out of existence".

The shit's actually still there, smeared all over the walls. Here's a mop and bucket - clean it up yourself.

[snaff]

Well you got Morrissey posters banned so you're probably happy now.

[Barney]

...

Yeah, but that's like, your opinion.

[KlaxonCow]

Well you got Morrissey posters banned so you're probably happy now.

The words "Morrissey" and "happy" in the same sentence. There's some kind of irony in there somewhere, I'm sure.

[Deckard]

I would care about Morrissey if he’d actually produced a good track in the last 10 years. Or written a good book - Christ his autobiography was terrible.

[Governmentyard]

Christ his autobiography was terrible.

Yes, but his personality and his life are terrible, so what do you expect him to write?

[KlaxonCow]

so what do you expect him to write?

Misery. Pure unadulterated misery. La tristesse durera.

I'd be disappointed with anything less, frankly.