EU referendum are you in or out

[tufty]

Seems Canada won't be extending the deal it has with EU nations to the UK post Brexit. Negotiations can start the day the UK leaves the EU, they say.

"Bend over this barrel and pull down your pants".

[Little stoned kiwi]

Have a few meetings with Xi Jinping. That will get them all around the negotiating table.

[KlaxonCow]

The gap between reality and the Brexiteer's fevered imagination widens, with Ann Widdicombe ranting in the EU Parliament that this is akin to "slaves rising up against their slave owners".

I'm curious what they will say when the Scots want to escape the oppression from their Westminster slave owners.

We kind of already know.

Because, as mentioned, Theresa May's scheduled this "review" which will be aimed at "strengthening the Union", to ensure that Westminster "governs for the whole of the UK" blah-blah-blah.

She avoided calling it "closer political union" or mentioning the crucial importance there is in maintaining borderless "freedom of movement" between Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland, in order to maintain our "single market" with its shared "single currency".

Because even an idiot like her knows not to so obviously speak her total hypocrisies out loud.

But, yeah, in seeking her "legacy", she's searching for the possibility of being known for "saving the Union" by rolling back devolution drastically to power-grab back control to the "slave owners" of Westminster, before all the "colonial slaves" say, fuck this, and start running for the hills (well, okay, they already once ran for the hills from the Romans to be in hilly / mountainous Wales and Scotland in the first place, but you know what I mean).

[gilesgoat]

With all this 'in general across Europe/world' increase of 'right parties', 'sovranists' and 'populists' the concept of 'union' is more and more vanishing, actually things are getting pretty much 50% 50% divided in many cases.

Which maybe 'it's a natural situation to happen' the problem is that it leads to a 'no compromise solutions' situation

If you noted, in many cases and different situations we are reaching a sort of '50% 50% stall case', I think it's impossible to talk about 'union' when there are 'systems' that think that each one is better than the other and/or can do without it.

Problem is, some of this 'systems' REALLY are like that , in the sense 'to exists and work as they want the other must not exist' and/or they have to go separate ways.

Contrary to entropy that should create 'a mix of all energy' and arrive to 'a flat grey totally distributed status' where nothing more happens here it's like 'reverse entropy', where a state of initial confusion/mix arrives at a point of almost two perfectly separated 0 / 1 states which consequence that 'maximum energy difference'.

You cannot talk about 'union' when you almost reached 'the maximum possible separation' !

It should be very interesting and probably quite complicated to analyze how we got to all this, certainly social changes are at the base/core.

I personally, honestly, with all this 'social media' and 'social interaction all time' makes me wish/feel to be instead even more isolated and anti-social because I literally feel "bombarded by forced social interaction I don't really want to handle at such scale".

And I think that's probably one of the causes of all this "division", people starting to isolate rather than cooperate because maybe "the amount of information exchange is too big" ?

Maybe it was really better "when the internet wasn't there" and "we did not really know what was happening all time in all places ?".

Maybe you had this illusion or reality ? That "what was happening there was not really affecting you ?", isn't it maybe that now we are "too worried" about the fact that "anything that may happen anywhere can affect ( deeply ? ) us" ?

Even politics, was a thing that in the past "unless you were really into you would not care" nowadays "politics is more than a soap opera", everyone watching it, checking it to see "WTF now in UK" or "WTF now that guy with the toupee is going to say" or "WTF now are they coming out with ?".

Can't remember what was that movie where one says "I am not into politics !" and the other replies "Politics is life" ( was it the running man ? )

Anyway "unification" ? .. you are joking

Unification of WHAT ?

It's more "Renovation" that is needed, by the look of it "the times of Labor and Tories are GONE", we need new parties, new people, new ways of doing.

[gilesgoat]

So ... surprise surprise .. hearing extremely depressing things on the radio ( LBC ) .. so in the end, UNsurprisingly, they sacked the amabassador ... looking gloom and doom about Brexit, no matter what, now this fantastic 'get back control plan' is starting more and more to look like 'bend down for USA and pray'.

I can see a future .. not good ...

Things would have never happened or you think they would never happen, from jokes to "serious talking" about moving LS and the sheep out of Britain .. it's really SO bad ..

At least The Queen can still plant a tree all by herself, that gave me really a smile, in a positive way

I'd bet Boris can't even do that by himself

[F-ZeroOne]

Just to be a pedant, as far as I'm aware the Ambassador wasn't sacked, he resigned - understandably so, as his position has been made untenable. It will be interesting to compare how this "pompous ass" handled his leaving compared with how the person who called him that will handle his, when the time comes.

[PFVA]

Only today i heard what the Ambassador said in the e/ms about Trump and his Adiministration. Well, i think lots of people are saying that but of course when it comes from an Ambassador and it becomes public one knows he has to resign that post.

[PFVA]

Ow no! Noooo!
I just heard on the news (telly) that Trump may come here for a visit in August, for an entire day.
Our Foreign Dept is not confirming it. There is still hope is just gossip.

[Rubisco]

It should be very interesting and probably quite complicated to analyze how we got to all this, certainly social changes are at the base/core.

I personally, honestly, with all this 'social media' and 'social interaction all time' makes me wish/feel to be instead even more isolated and anti-social because I literally feel "bombarded by forced social interaction I don't really want to handle at such scale".

And I think that's probably one of the causes of all this "division", people starting to isolate rather than cooperate because maybe "the amount of information exchange is too big" ?

Maybe it was really better "when the internet wasn't there" and "we did not really know what was happening all time in all places ?".

Social media is exactly the problem. When lazy journalists can't be bothered doing actual journalism instead firing up Twitter and reporting on whatever pathetic drama is trending then can they really complain when a Twitter troll is elected president? Actually it doesn't even have to be trending, I've seen news reports highlighting comments that haven't even garnered any attention. Likes and retweets in the single figures and presented as significant.

Some over-excitable students ban Germaine Greer from speaking at their union and it's Stalinist Russia all over again. UKIP posts a dodgy advert more out of idiocy than malice and gets labelled "far-right" and listed alongside the BNP by groups like Hope Not Hate. You may think "serves them right", but now actual far-right racists think that millions have their back. It emboldens them.

The block feature has given people a taste for blocking out views they don't like instead of engaging with them. But it's not as easy to block people out of real life.

There's also the issue that progressivism creates lasting change best as the underdog. So many victories and a march through the institutions mean that progressives think that they no longer have to fight, they think that they can simply point back in time and say we were right then, we're right now about this, accept it. It's like neglecting to bring the slowest kid in class along with you, instead shouting "CUNT!" in his face over and over again and then acting surprised when he lashes out.

It's more "Renovation" that is needed, by the look of it "the times of Labor and Tories are GONE", we need new parties, new people, new ways of doing.

Absolutely, neither party has solid ideological foundations any more. The Tories have lost so many social arguments they're not even bothered about whatever remains, whatever conservative views they still hold they're scared of showing. We have the bizarre phenomenon of Tory Teresa May talking about the gender pay gap, seemingly completely oblivious that the idea is just socialism through a feminist lens.

Whereas modern left-wing thought has outgrown the trade-unionist ideals the Labour Party was founded upon, set up to redistribute wealth from the rich to the poor within a closed system called the United Kingdom. Ideas have gone global, and it's morally sound for them to do so, but when your power to fight the good fight is based upon success within a powerful national democracy, and when so much of your voter base haven't really believed in your cause, they've been propping you up out of self-interest, what do you do? We have a left who complain about 2 million British children living in relative poverty defined as a globally-generous household income of less than £17k because of the even higher incomes of other Brits, at the same time decrying various forms of systemic privilege. Total cognitive dissonance.

This has not gone unnoticed by the British working class. They know that their exclusive right to share in the wealth of the rich people on their side of an imaginary line is under threat from the people who used to fight on their behalf.

[merman]

Just to be a pedant, as far as I'm aware the Ambassador wasn't sacked, he resigned - understandably so, as his position has been made untenable. It will be interesting to compare how this "pompous ass" handled his leaving compared with how the person who called him that will handle his, when the time comes.

The real story here is who leaked the cables to be passed on to the newspaper?*
Met Police are now investigating - and have already said it was not in the public interest to reveal them, meaning that no-one can use the "freedom of the press" defence.

The key seems to be that Sir Kim Darroch was perceived as anti-Brexit, even though he had never made any public speeches on the topic. It's clear that the cables were used as a lever to get him out and put someone pro-Brexit and pro-Trump in his place.

Which is also going to backfire. The Foreign Office are standing with Darroch, and very few there like Boris after his incompetent spell as dumb diplomat... I mean, Foreign Secretary. But then Hunt is apparently not very popular with the civil servants either.

*There is another issue. Diplomatic cables are generally not leaked, for being politically sensitive and protecting relations with other countries. They are shared between countries though for reasons of security information. The threat of more leaks means the prospect of NOT getting access to that security information.

[KlaxonCow]

the gender pay gap

Basically, once you account for hours worked - as women are more likely to work part-time - and the type of jobs that men and women choose to do - because did you know that 98% of all workplace fatalities are men, as they pretty much still are the only ones doing the most dangerous life-threatening jobs? So where's the call for women to take their equal share of workplace fatalities, eh? - and other such variables, then "the gender pay gap" effectively completely disappears.

Which, of course, would logically be the case. Because IT'S AGAINST THE LAW to pay different people different wages for the exact same job - so, please, if you discover any actual instance of this genuinely happening, take the bastards to court and sue them. Be you male, female or other. Be you black, white or mixed race. If you find any arsehole genuinely doing this, then nail that bastard to the wall with my blessing.

But, please, don't just make shit up. It undermines your case, when it is rightful, by "crying wolf" when it absolutely isn't.


(As I've mentioned before, I'm a humanist. This is a proper superset of "feminist", as women are human. But, equally, all other human beings are human too, thus I'm compelled by my humanism to be as wholly impartial as humanly possible. We need to fix ALL injustice, for everyone, equally, all at the same time. Man and / or woman. Rich or poor. Black and / or white. Young or old. No human should suffer injustice - and that also includes being erroneously lied and exaggerated about with vicious rumours. Even if they are the oppressor, and you are the victim - you still may not claim any more than your rightful justice. As "an eye for an eye" simply leaves the whole world blind.)

[gilesgoat]

the gender pay gap

Basically, once you account for hours worked - as women are more likely to work part-time - and the type of jobs that men and women choose to do - because did you know that 98% of all workplace fatalities are men, as they pretty much still are the only ones doing the most dangerous life-threatening jobs? So where's the call for women to take their equal share of workplace fatalities, eh? - and other such variables, then "the gender pay gap" effectively completely disappears.

Which, of course, would logically be the case. Because IT'S AGAINST THE LAW to pay different people different wages for the exact same job - so, please, if you discover any actual instance of this genuinely happening, take the bastards to court and sue them. Be you male, female or other. Be you black, white or mixed race. If you find any arsehole genuinely doing this, then nail that bastard to the wall with my blessing.

But, please, don't just make shit up. It undermines your case, when it is rightful, by "crying wolf" when it absolutely isn't.


(As I've mentioned before, I'm a humanist. This is a proper superset of "feminist", as women are human. But, equally, all other human beings are human too, thus I'm compelled by my humanism to be as wholly impartial as humanly possible. We need to fix ALL injustice, for everyone, equally, all at the same time. Man and / or woman. Rich or poor. Black and / or white. Young or old. No human should suffer injustice - and that also includes being erroneously lied and exaggerated about with vicious rumours. Even if they are the oppressor, and you are the victim - you still may not claim any more than your rightful justice. As "an eye for an eye" simply leaves the whole world blind.)

I can only speak form the Italian point of view, as I can say "I know how it works there".

Ok .. in pure theory/papers in Italy we have what they call "Collective National Contracts" where fundamentally unions and government and such and whatever I dunno established rules/wages like "for this work X you get paid MINIMUM Y per hour and you have those ZWV benefits depending on blah blah".

So fundamentally "that you are male or female or anything else has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO" you get what you get hourly as anyone else, tot per hour per hours worked = salary.

So from that point of view "nothing you can trick about", if you don't respect that your are breaking the law like anyone else breaking the law.

But then there are also "categories", for a given job X you may be employed with different "levels" of course "levels" also mean "different levels of responsibility" for example you may be "a simple guy/girl moving boxes in/out a warehouse" and that could be "level 5" or you may be also responsibile for keeping track of shipments ( I am inventing here to give the idea ) and you may be "level 4" ( levels go up to '1' that is considered 'the max' ).

Now now, how you go from one level from another well .. in first of all "based on what your job responsibilities actually are and how long you been doing them" so if I hire you as "boxes mover" and then I put you into "accounting" effectively if you doing it ok you HAVE the right to say "no actually now I am a 3, you owe me more money".

Here is where all the grey areas can start/be, what normally happens you are hired at the lowest possible level ( and salary ) with the promise that "you'll do a career path" and you'll move up levels, most often than not you end up in working a level higher than you are hired for but not formally switched into that.

How can they do that ? With various legal/semi-legal loopholes and/or as "if you want to work and get at least SOME money do like that and shut up and/or go home jobless".

Is there discrimination in that and/or how they assign/give "promotions" to go higher levels ?

Sure there is, that's maybe were mostly this story of "gender difference" hits but then again, in Italy, is really more about "how much friend of someone you are" rather than gender, they don't care super much about gender, they care more about "what you do what you are who you are connected with", etc.

Must be also said women have - and this is one of the main reasons that makes hiring of women more complex - "maternity leave", IIRC you can get up to 6 months (?) not sure, of paid leave WITHOUT losing your workplace plus 1 year I think at some % paid leave still without losing your job, it means you are expecting they need to find a replacement for you for over 1 year and pay you and the replacement person.

That then becomes "another problem" because after 1 year or so when you come back they should fire him/her as "it's not longer needed".

In various places they were actually hiring girls "only if" - was a legitimate question on job interviews at some point - only if "you are not planning to get pregnant/have babies for at least the next 4 years or such".

"Informally" that's still a question.

But yeah "in pure papers" there is no way you can pay a female/x/whatever less, papers only talk about type of work, time and such they never mention gender.

In practice let's say there are ways you can favour one gender/category more than another but that applies 'to everyone' not just a particular gender.

And then again if it's "improperly done" it's normally done in "improperl legal ways" so hard to put in a court and say "they are doing this badly" I mean they find the perfectly legal loophole to do that.

[PFVA]

Did I hear it right?

In answer to the new EU president's speech Farage said something about the EU becoming a communist central block? Communist?

[Rubisco]

the gender pay gap

Basically, once you account for hours worked - as women are more likely to work part-time - and the type of jobs that men and women choose to do - because did you know that 98% of all workplace fatalities are men, as they pretty much still are the only ones doing the most dangerous life-threatening jobs? So where's the call for women to take their equal share of workplace fatalities, eh? - and other such variables, then "the gender pay gap" effectively completely disappears.

Which, of course, would logically be the case. Because IT'S AGAINST THE LAW to pay different people different wages for the exact same job - so, please, if you discover any actual instance of this genuinely happening, take the bastards to court and sue them. Be you male, female or other. Be you black, white or mixed race. If you find any arsehole genuinely doing this, then nail that bastard to the wall with my blessing.

But, please, don't just make shit up. It undermines your case, when it is rightful, by "crying wolf" when it absolutely isn't.


(As I've mentioned before, I'm a humanist. This is a proper superset of "feminist", as women are human. But, equally, all other human beings are human too, thus I'm compelled by my humanism to be as wholly impartial as humanly possible. We need to fix ALL injustice, for everyone, equally, all at the same time. Man and / or woman. Rich or poor. Black and / or white. Young or old. No human should suffer injustice - and that also includes being erroneously lied and exaggerated about with vicious rumours. Even if they are the oppressor, and you are the victim - you still may not claim any more than your rightful justice. As "an eye for an eye" simply leaves the whole world blind.)

You are correct. The trouble is that if the only people running for office espousing this correct view are arseholes like Carl Benjamin then we have a massive problem.

[merman]

Did I hear it right?

In answer to the new EU president's speech Farage said something about the EU becoming a communist central block? Communist?

To Farage, anyone to the left of Genghis Khan is a Communist.

Hunt and Johnson now saying "the backstop is dead" - seriously, these guys are Dumb and Dumber.

Hunt also boasting that as Culture Secretary he "delivered" the Olympics.
Yeah, absolutely nothing to do with the SEVEN YEARS planning and preparation before you got the job, or the fact Hunt wanted to include footage of Hitler in the video projections