EU referendum are you in or out

[Harlequin]

He was, of course, born a USAmerican.

His actual full name, according to Stuart Lee, is Boris Piccaninny Watermelon Letterbox Cake Bumboys Vampires Haircut Inconclusive-Cocaine-Event Wall-Spaffer Spunk-Burster Fuck-Business Fuck-The-Families Get-Off-My-Fucking-Laptop Turds Johnson.

[Barney]

But guys! He's doing what we voted for! He's preserving our Parliamentary Sovereignty by stopping Parliament from exercising its sovereign duty.

And I'm told that the brexiteers didn't vote for brexit due to racism or bigotry - they voted to take back our sovereignty. It's all working out lovely so far.

[rowan]

I've sort of given up caring so much about the detail of what is or is not going on each day.

It seems to me that nothing can break the deadlock of parliament not being able to agree on what they want.
Meanwhile, not moving forward to deliver brexit [of any kind] is damaging in and of itself, as any times of uncertainty are.

Going round and round and round in circles has to stop. I'm starting to think "Whatever... do whatever to get brexit delivered, even if it really has to be no-deal. Then I hope we can start negotiating a deal once that part's over".

[snaff]

Everything Boris Johnson has done has been for remainers. The threat of no-deal is purely for the benefit of the EU negotiators, to make sure they believe there's a credible threat and will allow a modification to Theresa May's remainer deal to make it palatable to the remainer parliament. If we end up with no-deal it will be all because of the remainers undermining our negotiating position.

[rowan]

Everything Boris Johnson has done has been for remainers. The threat of no-deal is purely for the benefit of the EU negotiators, to make sure they believe there's a credible threat and will allow a modification to Theresa May's remainer deal to make it palatable to the remainer parliament. If we end up with no-deal it will be all because of the remainers undermining our negotiating position.

Tripe. It's his game plan all along.

Honestly, what needs to happen for leavers to not blame remainers for hijacking/sabotaging their brexit?

[gilesgoat]

Everything Boris Johnson has done has been for remainers. The threat of no-deal is purely for the benefit of the EU negotiators, to make sure they believe there's a credible threat and will allow a modification to Theresa May's remainer deal to make it palatable to the remainer parliament. If we end up with no-deal it will be all because of the remainers undermining our negotiating position.

Tripe. It's his game plan all along.

Honestly, what needs to happen for leavers to not blame remainers for hijacking/sabotaging their brexit?

Reality is Brexit was not meant to be, they were totally unprepared for it, it was a vote supposedly to go one way since start, if they knew it was going to bring to all this they would never done that vote in the first place.

Secondly the whole referendum was done on totally false premises/promises and bases and must be say a lot of people unforunately really voted carelessy without knowing/thinking at all at real consequences.

Third I think all that was more about "we don't want all those immigrants/refugees/people escaping from wars that all other EU countries are starting to split among themselves", this is still "fear number one" of some people.

Fourth .. really that's a BIG question "can really UK work within EU and/or anyone else and how ?" .. because all this state of things says quite a bit about will/power of "negotiation/well staying" with the rest of EU, makes it look like/feel like UK still hold "some big grudge" againist EU in general .. and .. that's a bad feeling

You say "soverreing" .. it's more like "we want to be the only side saying what we want or don't want" fact is if you can't make deals now what kind of deals and how long would it take for each one to be made once EU is left with no-deal ( that admittedly at this point for UK seems almost to be the only logical option must say ) ?

You'll go on arguing years and years and/or ending up in accepting not so good deals when time/situation will be too hard ( in UK ) to say "no" to anything.

And then there's Ireland .. and international worldwide "rules" about borders and such .. big mess.

Don't know what to say really, nothing looks good the only hope is it's not going to be too bad.

Anyway the only "half blame" is that situations like these seems to be nowadays common/worse in many part of the world, so it's all going shit, not just UK.

[phattslagg]

Amazingly, I actually find myself mostly agreeing with Snaff on this. It’s Johnson’s only play: make it look like he’s really mad enough to do a no-deal Brexit in the hope the EU will cave at the last minute. Trouble is - the EU know this. They’ll be better prepared to weather the consequences of no deal, and they’re very likely to call his bluff. This is why we have to take action to prevent it.

[Cloudane]

Just trying to make the world a slightly more civil place

Careful. Couple of thousand years ago a guy was nailed to a tree for that sort of talk.

Everything Boris Johnson has done has been for remainers. The threat of no-deal is purely for the benefit of the EU negotiators, to make sure they believe there's a credible threat and will allow a modification to Theresa May's remainer deal to make it palatable to the remainer parliament. If we end up with no-deal it will be all because of the remainers undermining our negotiating position.

(bold part in particular)

Oh wait you're serious?

The EU won't be removing the backstop no matter how much we try and scare them. Throwing Ireland under the bus for short term economic benefit really wouldn't do them any favours in the long term (as it'd show them up as an orgnisation willing to stab any member country in the back for €€€) so they're prepared for the likelihood of no deal - as we should be.

[gilesgoat]

I read around that the problem of backstop is much bigger than Ireland.

The problem seems to be "if they allow to happen for Ireland there are even more dangerous countries that would want the same", I think specifically the article I read was mentioning something around the border with Russia and such.

They don't want a "cascade effect" to happen that's the big problem with backstop.

At this point the only other solution is someway to make Ireland accept a hard border ?

[Ollie]

Everything Boris Johnson has done has been for remainers.

I disagree. Everything Boris Johnson has done has been for Boris Johnson. I honestly don't believe he gives a shit what the Brexit outcome is - deal, no deal, or even no Brexit - except to the extent that it improves his chances of staying in power.

[KlaxonCow]

Here's an interesting - and slightly chilling - video / article from Eddie Mair on LBC, pointing out how massively opposed many members of Boris Johnson's cabinet were to the notion of prorouging Parliament before they were cabinet members and how, right now, ALL OF THEM are deathly quiet, as they're refusing to officially talk to the press at all on the matter:

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/ ... arliament/

They all speak so passionately about how terrible the very notion is to democracy... but now they sit in a cabinet that's done exactly that and none of them are saying anything at all? Not a single word?

What's going on here? Since when does government refuse to talk to the press about their latest policy (over which they've not claimed anything like "national security", that is, but that it's a perfectly normal and harmless process, per what Rees Mogg has said, so why the blanket refusal for any member of the cabinet to be interviewed about it)? This is totally unheard of.

All members of Parliament not only have all the same "freedom of speech" rights as everyone else, but they actually legally have additional powers to say some things - as part of their job, in Parliament - that the rest of us would get in trouble for saying (so that nothing can potentially get in their way in doing their job to bring their constituents' wants and needs to Parliament, even if it would break some laws outside the special jurisdiction of the Palace of Westminster to do so, they are given special dispensation to even potentially slander and libel a little, if it is necessary to bring matters to the House).

Yet not a single one of them wants to offer their opinion? Do that part of their job which entails actually telling the constituents they represent what they're doing for them?

Deathly silence. Guilty silence.

They know they are doing wrong, regardless of what they might claim - or they wouldn't be in hiding and under "press lock-down" and forbidden to speak to the public and so forth.

[skab]

prime minister shutting down our sovereign parliament so that it can't stop him carrying out a thing that parliament has expressly said it does not want to happen.

Oh, we did that quite some time ago. We called it "Ermächtigungsgesetz" and it worked quite good for a while. And for the right kind of people. Everybody was cheering and wearing "Make Germany great again" caps. Except for the not-right kind of people. They were wearing some kind of star symbol. How unpatriotic.

[Harlequin]

Here's an interesting - and slightly chilling - video / article from Eddie Mair on LBC, pointing out how massively opposed many members of Boris Johnson's cabinet were to the notion of prorouging Parliament before they were cabinet members and how, right now, ALL OF THEM are deathly quiet, as they're refusing to officially talk to the press at all on the matter:
https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/ ... arliament/

Also, https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... parliament.

[Ollie]

Yet not a single one of them wants to offer their opinion? Do that part of their job which entails actually telling the constituents they represent what they're doing for them?

As members of the cabinet, they are subject to collective responsibility, which means that publicly they can't speak against a Government decision unless they resign from the cabinet. So it's because they value their nice cabinet jobs and salaries more than their integrity, essentially.

[Ratsoap]

Who's betting on a GE in early November?

If Boris delivers brexit, then the brexiters will vote him in for heroically delivering. If it's somehow delayed again, then he'll get a landslide as he's proved he's 100% behind it, so no need for the Brexit party.

All this before any ill effects can be felt. 5 more years, all sown up. Lovely. When shit starts going wrong, start blaming the EU, remoaners, the jocks/Norn Irish, Corbyn... Basically anyone who it can be pinned on, cos let's face it, the people who voted for this shit will never own it.