EU referendum are you in or out

[(o)(o)]

Good to see him hoisted by his own petard

And here he is, in said hoisted position:

They should have left him there!!

[tufty]

Needs a big spike just under his bumhole.

[Absolute_Zero]

Swinson voted for the referendum btw.

Nope.

OTOH, Jeremy voted for an EU referendum Feb 24 2011... and was absent for six other referendum votes.
https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/10133 ... olicy=1027

In that same 2011 vote, Swinson voted against and was either absent (3) or not-an-MP for the other referendum votes.
https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/11971 ... olicy=1027

Corbyn 1 : 0 Swinson

[PFVA]

I liked the court ruling. Suspending the parliament at this time looked a kind of dictatorial and after all i'm used to think of the UK as the oldest democracy in Europe.

[(o)(o)]

Swinson voted for the referendum btw.

Nope.

OTOH, Jeremy voted for an EU referendum Feb 24 2011... and was absent for six other referendum votes.
https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/10133 ... olicy=1027

In that same 2011 vote, Swinson voted against and was either absent (3) or not-an-MP for the other referendum votes.
https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/11971 ... olicy=1027

Corbyn 1 : 0 Swinson

Her approach has been inconsistent but she's backed having an eu referendum and having a second referendum :

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck ... -on-brexit

[Absolute_Zero]

"Swinson voted for the referendum btw." no she didn't.

2008 was in the context of a LD policy that major treaty changes (Lisbon) should receive public approval.

If you want to include the referendum votes of 2008, the score becomes:

Corbyn 4 : 1 Swinson

[Barney]

Corbyn has been a leaver for a long time, as far as I recall.

Labour's position is now to ask the public what they want to do - leave (with a deal, as no-deal is now off the table) or remain?

I fail to see how that's undemocratic. Can anyone enlighten me as to why he's pushing his own agenda?

[Ollie]

What, the kind of sabotage being a more coherent policy position than Labour on the most important issue of the day? KILL THE EVIL WOMAN!

In my constituency, for example, currently marginal between Tory and Labour, with LD in a distant 3rd place with no realistic chance of winning, rumour has it they are planning to parachute in a candidate apparently calculated to take votes from Labour. I can't see the point of this unless it is to sabotage Labour's chance of taking the seat off the Tories. ISTM that the Lib Dems are positioning themselves in greater opposition to the official opposition than to the government.

[KlaxonCow]

Of course, these things are only a problem because we insist on a "first past the post" system, rather than "proportional representation" - which would somewhat nullify the need for any tactical voting.

(Which is consistent on the part of the Lib Dems, as they've always argued for PR. Now the main parties - increasingly losing their electoral monopoly, falling into third and fourth places in some elections - might start appreciating the wisdom of "don't kick people on your way up the ladder, in case you meet them again on the way down".)

[Dio]

What, the kind of sabotage being a more coherent policy position than Labour on the most important issue of the day? KILL THE EVIL WOMAN!

In my constituency, for example, currently marginal between Tory and Labour, with LD in a distant 3rd place with no realistic chance of winning, rumour has it they are planning to parachute in a candidate apparently calculated to take votes from Labour. I can't see the point of this unless it is to sabotage Labour's chance of taking the seat off the Tories. ISTM that the Lib Dems are positioning themselves in greater opposition to the official opposition than to the government.

In 30% of the seats in the country the reverse is more likely true. And our voting system is too fucked up to express this.

I couldn't agree more with the problems that this creates, but what you've just said amounts to "How terrible it is that the LDs are being coherent and actually offering a clear position in Europe because it might spoil the chances of a party who just this week totally refused to and continued to demonstrate that if you vote Labour on Europe you have a very limited idea what you're going to get."

[Ollie]

What, the kind of sabotage being a more coherent policy position than Labour on the most important issue of the day? KILL THE EVIL WOMAN!

In my constituency, for example, currently marginal between Tory and Labour, with LD in a distant 3rd place with no realistic chance of winning, rumour has it they are planning to parachute in a candidate apparently calculated to take votes from Labour. I can't see the point of this unless it is to sabotage Labour's chance of taking the seat off the Tories. ISTM that the Lib Dems are positioning themselves in greater opposition to the official opposition than to the government.

In 30% of the seats in the country the reverse is more likely true. And our voting system is too fucked up to express this.

I couldn't agree more with the problems that this creates, but what you've just said amounts to "How terrible it is that the LDs are being coherent and actually offering a clear position in Europe because it might spoil the chances of a party who just this week totally refused to and continued to demonstrate that if you vote Labour on Europe you have a very limited idea what you're going to get."

Whereas if you vote in such a way as to keep the Tories in power we're fucked no matter what happens with Europe.

[Dio]

I know. I'll probably end up voting Labour tactically, although they've done fuck all to deserve it - I'm dead keen on socialism, but competence is more important - and it's an irrelevance anyway since I'm in one of the safest seats in the country.

[gilesgoat]

I know. I'll probably end up voting Labour tactically, although they've done fuck all to deserve it - I'm dead keen on socialism, but competence is more important - and it's an irrelevance anyway since I'm in one of the safest seats in the country.

It's the same problem of Italy "you'd need some totally new fresh party(ies) to vote", new people, better people, fresh ideas ...

That's why in Italy "5 stars movement" at the beginning SEEMED like "they are new, they are young, they have ideas" ..

.. .. turned out one of the weirdest / more dangerous / bananas party ever existed !!!

Then it's the usual problem "who should I vote for then ?" and the first at most logical answer would be "no one of them should deserve to be voted" .. but the other problem is "and there's nothing else as well".

And then "the third problem" is it becomes "I vote for something I HOPE it's going to be the lesser evil", but it's still evil.

It's a dilemma is it ?

[KlaxonCow]

Regarding the Brexit referendum, Oxford University conducted some deeper research into the numbers.

And it seems that though Wales voted Leave, the Welsh themselves actually leaned towards voting Remain - and it was the numbers of English immigrants / retirees who've moved into Wales that just tipped it over to a Leave victory:

https://nation.cymru/news/wales-brexit- ... niversity/

Which is a shame, as the Welsh vote for Leave has been used as a kind of "cloak" to rebuff the idea that Brexit is rooted in English nationalism - "because, look, the Welsh also voted Leave too!". But this deeper dive into the numbers suggests that's a misrepresentation and the Welsh really voted Remain, but that the English, now living in Wales, tipped the vote to Leave overall.

(Possibly because all those English voters in Wales were keen to vote Leave - they had the axe to grind here - while the Welsh Remain voters were more apathetic about it all, considering the issue a bit of an irrelevance to their daily lives, and did not come out with the same force as the English Leave did.)

Of course, wherever you live and wherever you came from, you surely have exactly the same right to vote however which way you want to vote and that's not at all at issue - but the point here is more that there's a difference between "the Welsh voted Leave" and "Wales voted Leave". The former is actually inaccurate, as "the natives", it turns out, didn't do so. But, yes, the latter is factually correct in that Leave had the numerically superior number of votes within the region of Wales.

Well, you get the gist. Brexit is English nationalism. The result in Wales might have helped disguise that - giving it a veil of being "British", rather than just English - but a deep-dive into the numbers confirms that, no, it really is just an English thing, after all.

[Cloudane]

Of course, these things are only a problem because we insist on a "first past the post" system, rather than "proportional representation" - which would somewhat nullify the need for any tactical voting.

Aye - but on the other side of the coin, it'd also probably mean the Brexit Party occupying a very significant number of seats if there was a GE right now, as it would've done for UKIP in 2017: https://www.makevotesmatter.org.uk/firs ... equalvotes - not sure how I feel about that. I can imagine some scary coalitions with the nasty party.