EU referendum are you in or out

[Dio]

I long for the day when we can start voting on individual policies so a true sense of what the people *actually* want can be gleaned.

That worked SO well for Brexit.

The problem with direct democracy is that nobody wants to invest the time required to understand the issues, and that's why it has to be handed off to professional politicians. Direct democracy means the underinformed majority making decisions based on soundbites and whoever can buy the best media coverage. As Brexit proved, that's a disaster.

[Harlequin]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ochlocracy.

[Rhythm]

That worked SO well for Brexit.

The problem with direct democracy is that nobody wants to invest the time required to understand the issues, and that's why it has to be handed off to professional politicians. Direct democracy means the underinformed majority making decisions based on soundbites and whoever can buy the best media coverage. As Brexit proved, that's a disaster.

I'm an unusual Remainer in so much as I don't think the Leave vote was the problem. Nor was putting it to the people in the first place. They were genuinely OK ideas and if the majority want to leave, then so be it.

The problems arose when our representative democracy then took that ball and ran with it, allowing A50 to be triggered without any follow-on discussion or a plan. Even now MPs are sat there deciding what Brexit actually means and what form it should take. That should have all happened before lighting the touchpaper. As it stands they've lit a firework, it's about to go off, some people are stood with a bucket saying "we should put it out", some are saying "let it go off but let's stand behind this line" and some are saying "fuck safety, let's get close so we can have a better view"

In short, asking the people what they want... I'm OK with that. Our uncontrolled media would of course create issues in its current form, but that's another piece of the shit-smeared jigsaw that needs solving anyway

[gilesgoat]

*SNIP*

In short, asking the people what they want... I'm OK with that. Our uncontrolled media would of course create issues in its current form, but that's another piece of the shit-smeared jigsaw that needs solving anyway

The problem is "I give you to choose between A and B and I present you A and B like something totally else and the after you chosen I go for C that nobody ever voted for".

That's ONE problem.

The other problem is this case "none of them has tought enough" of the consequences of B ( Leave ) and seems "they completely forgot about the small problem of the Irish border".

Then again, in essence, it sounded all like "a very nationalist move" which can be ok in the sense "ok every nation want to be its own thing" but "there are ways and ways to do thing", this is not the way.

Especially when "it's all EU's fault" is a good scapegoat for so many things that little has to do with it.

Certainly makes you feel like "WW2 is never over for certain people" or things like that, nor "the Empire" times

So "just to push another nail in the coffin", for example, "the so big nation" has "such big CEOs and systems in place" that not only allowed a thing like TC to miserably fail but also being practically fully bought by Chinese investors that in fair play gave TC TONS of money "to fix itself up" that the government would have never found ... because they probably spent 50 times more in Brexit ..

And that's just one of the many things.

.. and Boris Johnson ...

.. and his best friend ...

And so on .. and so on ..

There are other ways to be great, certainly not represented by the "examples" above.

But I tell you what I feel by the look of it "all those problems" will NOT be fixed in/by this generation of politicians, nor maybe the next, it's going to take a radical change of people and situations.

This is far too much mess and stirring stuff over and over and over in circles going nowhere.

[venusian]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ochlocracy.

Or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_democracy a.k.a delegative democracy.

[tufty]

I have only just learned, watching Bercow on parliament.tv, that some people who want to remain in the EU have been just as rabid as some who want to leave in issuing death threats to MPs.

What I learned from watching the same session was that Boris Johnson thinks that the best way to remember Jo Cox is to "get on with Brexit". I couldn't stomach any more after that.

[gilesgoat]

I have only just learned, watching Bercow on parliament.tv, that some people who want to remain in the EU have been just as rabid as some who want to leave in issuing death threats to MPs.

What I learned from watching the same session was that Boris Johnson thinks that the best way to remember Jo Cox is to "get on with Brexit". I couldn't stomach any more after that.

.. seriously ... and all the people that die in WW1 and WW2 "to create something good" and EU after that ?

.. those don't count enough ?

[zip accident]

I long for the day when we can start voting on individual policies [...]

That will be the day that I take to the hills with a sniper rifle.

For me it depends on whether the voting system is secure. It will never be 100% secure, but as things stand at the moment iot would be less than 50% secure, and that's not anything like acceptable.

[Harlequin]

I have only just learned, watching Bercow on parliament.tv, that some people who want to remain in the EU have been just as rabid as some who want to leave in issuing death threats to MPs.

What I learned from watching the same session was that Boris Johnson thinks that the best way to remember Jo Cox is to "get on with Brexit". I couldn't stomach any more after that.

I did manage to stomach more, at some cost to my dental health. I was often muttering, "Cunt!" and "Fuck you!" through gritted teeth. You missed the BJ walking out, despite entreaties from Bercow to go back and sit down, before a point of order about his behaviour.

[Cloudane]

Boris propaganda (to describe it more accurately) broadcast in primary schools:
https://metro.co.uk/2019/09/25/brexit-p ... -10809109/

Disturbing. Proper Orwellian shit

It's telling that when asked about it he just skirted the issue and gave some random guff about investing in schools.

[Dio]

Note that this is all Boris can actually do when asked a question. It's piffle-paffle or recycle a soundbite. That's all he has.

[tufty]

Note that this is all Boris can actually do when asked a question. It's piffle-paffle or recycle a soundbite. That's all he has.

Yeah, that was what he was doing with the Jo Cox thing. He was being questioned on his divisive language, with the murder of Jo Cox being given as an example of what happens when we use that kind of speech. Rather than answer the question, without really thinking about the enormity of what he was saying, he trotted out the "get on with Brexit" thing.

He makes me want to puke.

[Dio]

I'm starting to wonder if there might be people getting very worried about an election campaign with him up front though. On existing evidence, he looks to be a far worse performer on TV than even May was.

Part of me is actually surprised the Tories haven't started getting itchy trigger finger given his performance so far. He's given them more than enough excuses.

[Absolute_Zero]

^ I can't see that... yet.

I suggest the opposition go hard on whether he dipped his johnson into pole dancing, IT entrepreneur, Jennifer Arcuri --as a serial offender, likely-- whilst simultaneously dispensing public funds in her direction. Borisconi.

[Harlequin]

Note that this is all Boris can actually do when asked a question. It's piffle-paffle or recycle a soundbite. That's all he has.

Yeah, that was what he was doing with the Jo Cox thing. He was being questioned on his divisive language, with the murder of Jo Cox being given as an example of what happens when we use that kind of speech. Rather than answer the question, without really thinking about the enormity of what he was saying, he trotted out the "get on with Brexit" thing.
He makes me want to puke.

I doubt that he even listened to what was being said. He probably had his "humbug" response to Sherriff and twelfth repetition of "get Brexit done" to Brabin prepared in his mind before either had got their second sentences out.

I'm starting to wonder if there might be people getting very worried about an election campaign with him up front though. On existing evidence, he looks to be a far worse performer on TV than even May was.
Part of me is actually surprised the Tories haven't started getting itchy trigger finger given his performance so far. He's given them more than enough excuses.

Remember the close association between him and the Orange one. Spurring anger against oneself in order to polarise and increase the fealty of one's base by directing its anger against those angered has been working well for the latter these past years.