EU referendum are you in or out

Inane baanter or words of wisdom - you decide...
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EU Are you IN or OUT

In
98
77%
Out
21
17%
Undecided (shake it all about)
8
6%
 
Total votes: 127

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Little stoned kiwi
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by Little stoned kiwi »

tufty wrote:There has been much fantasy about being able to trade freely with the world after a no deal crash out, we'll finally be out from under the iron fist of the EU that's been stifling British industry, etc etc. But that's bollocks. If we wish to sell to the EU post Brexit, with a deal or not, we must *at least* meet EU standards on everything we sell. We will have no say in those standards, it will be comply or no trade. All a deal will do is set the level of tariffs that the EU levy on imports from the UK.

The UK has always been able to set *higher* standards than the lowest minimal standards the EU imposes, so the only possible direction we would be pushing our standards, again, deal or no deal, is down. Not on services and products we want to sell elsewhere, obviously, because nobody is going to want (or even be allowed) to buy our now inferior goods at a higher price, but on the services and products we bring in. And, of course, worker's rights. Slash and burn on the welfare state, goodbye to pensions, minimum wage, holiday entitlements, anything you think you have as a "right" now, it's going.

No deal, of course, simply makes everything much, much, worse,but is desirable because it will make a lot of money for the disaster capitalists who've been pushing Brexit since the beginning. Doesn't really mater to them whether it happens now because we can't get an agreement, or in 2 or 3 years time because we can't work out a deal, but sooner is better.
So the only thing standing in the way of your own government fucking everyone over is the EU?
That's a much bigger problem than Brexit.
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F-ZeroOne
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by F-ZeroOne »

zip accident wrote:
F-ZeroOne wrote:Seeing the replies above got me thinking about why more consideration isn't given to turning around the question: if Brexit is such a brilliant idea, why is no-one else doing it?
Who said it was a brilliant idea?
52% of the people who voted in the referendum? :wink:

Just to be clear - I think its an absolutely terrible idea.
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tufty
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by tufty »

Little stoned kiwi wrote:So the only thing standing in the way of your own government fucking everyone over is the EU?
Yeah, that's pretty much it. The EU has a /lot/ of faults, but despite it being an overtly market-led capitalistic system, it's been responsible for pulling the rights of EU citizens, and the standards of products traded in the EU, up towards a common denominator, rather than down. In a normal situation, with a largely benign government, this would not be an issue; the EU's protections would be more or less redundant. However, and this is the "bigger problem than Brexit" you allude to, in the name of Brexit, we have a government that is hell bent on using Brexit as a tool to, as you put it, fuck everyone* over. Or, at least, is so hell bent on making their own profit from Brexit that they either don't care or realise that they are fucking everyone over.

* for "everyone", of course, read "the middle, and above all, the lower classes"
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Absolute_Zero
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by Absolute_Zero »

The Liberal Democrats and the SNP have proposed a short amendment to the Fixed Term Parliaments Act, which would specify the polling day for the next election as 9 December.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... l-election

Over to Boris Johnson.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by KlaxonCow »

zip accident wrote:You should vote for who you do want, not against whoever you don't. [...]

I'm not in favour of the Lib Dems since the coalition, the Greens are remain and are not Lib Dems though, so they'll do for me.
"They'll do for me"?

So you're not really voting for the Greens because they're who you do want, but are the next best option against your once-preferred-but-no-longer option of the Lib Dems that you don't, to punish them for "enabling the Tories" in the coalition, who're the people you really want to vote against?

You see, this is why you shouldn't bandy around words like "immoral" about people's voting preferences, because it's a very thin line between virtue and hypocrisy.

You can't simultaneously say "vote for who you want" and then follow it with "they'll do". Because "they'll do" tells us that they're not really who you want, but they're just "the least worst option" - which is basically voting against whoever you don't (i.e. the most worst option).

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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by Absolute_Zero »

Absolute_Zero wrote:The Liberal Democrats and the SNP have proposed a short amendment to the Fixed Term Parliaments Act, which would specify the polling day for the next election as 9 December.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... l-election

Over to Boris Johnson.
I saw Corbyn on ITN describe the above as a 'stunt'... just like Nicky Morgan earlier on Sky. However, come the afternoon a #10 "insider" said the Government would ‘look at all options… including ideas similar’ to those proposed by the opposition parties.

If you're confused, Jeremy... this is what timorous, vacillating opposition *doesn't* look like.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by Absolute_Zero »

Flextension granted.

Soon we'll know...

a) whether the Government's call for an election was just a PR ploy, in the pretty certain knowledge that a two-thirds vote was unreachable. Despite healthy looking polls, obstacles remain to a Tory majority.

aaaand

b) what Labour's Brexcuse du jour will be. The let's keep Johnson caged in Downing St. until the end of 2020 to avoid that distant route to a no-deal exit, excuse? The EU (Macron) could force us out sans-deal; patience in very short supply. Despite some bad looking polls, there's potential to move the goalposts away from Brexit.

My best guess: shuffled standstill, that may at best birth a second ref. (having demonstrated that an election is insufficient to break the logjam)

We live in a Chinese curse of 'interesting times'.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by (o)(o) »

Seems Jo "Mad bitch" Swinson has handed the Tories a gift on a platter... Cummings and Johnson must be rolling about with laughter!! Obv to anyone with more than one braincell that the 31st deadline was engineered to produce a "people vs" GE. Well, her voting record IS indistinguishable from a Tory, so that's appropriate. Not to mention that 1/3rd of LDs are rats (apologies to rats) from other ships, still stsanding on Tory and Labour manifestos they were voted in on. Change UK? Fuck up the UK! Their constituents must be fuming...

So at this time, it looks to be a repeat of the Tory/LibDem pact with plenty more yummy austerity and excess deaths and decline of the UK for 5 years. Just what we all wanted.

BONUS! SNP in the mix to risk a proper tear up of the Union, potential hard border with Scotland, No Deal still bobbing around on the table. Yes this is much more sensible than Labour's plan of demanding No Deal off the table, or having Corbyn as caretaker PM for a measly few weeks. NEVER EVER DO THAT !!!

What happened to "bollocks to Brexit" you stupid bitch ??

Oh sorry... didn't mean to interrupt you
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by Dio »

As opposed to the Labour position, which is to go "No, these Tories are so awful that we want to leave them in charge"?

They are just going to slowly drip drip even more votes away to the Tories as they continue to pointlessly vacillate and achieve nothing.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by (o)(o) »

Dio wrote:As opposed to the Labour position, which is to go "No, these Tories are so awful that we want to leave them in charge"?

They are just going to slowly drip drip even more votes away to the Tories as they continue to pointlessly vacillate and achieve nothing.
Nah, the Labour plan is (apart from getting No Deal off the table) obviously to let the Tories destroy themselves.

As the weeks go by with Johnson's self imposed minority gov, imploding on itself, and being held to account by parliaments, amendments being added to the WA and so on.

He's already lost some bounce...

I know it's trendy to ignore actual policies and have a go at Labour because of how Corbyn looks and that but let's not go mental eh?
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by (o)(o) »

Seen this ??

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/ ... ction.html

Mental!

Get on social media, check out the Lib Dem supporters.. they ain't happy!
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by Dio »

Um, the Tory poll ratings have been rising over the last month. Mostly due to locking in more of the Brexit party vote, but still.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by (o)(o) »

Yep! So best to get a GE underfoot whilst Tories can win a majority with <35%

FKN BWillianT !!!!!

(But as I said, latest indicators are Johnson's bounce is down.. some internal Tory concerns about a GE even, until Swigson came along to save the day)
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by Dio »

It's a truly disastrous look for Labour to refuse a GE though. The LDs have calculated that they can beat Labour at the next election. I think they might be right, if Labour continue to procrastinate - in particular, if the LDs can actually get ahead of Labour, there could be a big vote switch suddenly there, because "Backing most likely non-Tory option" won't be Labour any more.

It's all very well blaming the LDs, but what's basically going on here is that the Tories and Labour are between them setting such a low fucking bar for the quality of political debate in this country that "anyone else" is starting to look attractive.
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Re: EU referendum are you in or out

Post by Absolute_Zero »

(o)(o) wrote:Seems Jo "Mad bitch" Swinson has handed the Tories a gift on a platter... Cummings and Johnson must be rolling about with laughter!! Obv to anyone with more than one braincell that the 31st deadline was engineered to produce a "people vs" GE. Well, her voting record IS indistinguishable from a Tory, so that's appropriate. Not to mention that 1/3rd of LDs are rats (apologies to rats) from other ships, still stsanding on Tory and Labour manifestos they were voted in on. Change UK? Fuck up the UK! Their constituents must be fuming...

So at this time, it looks to be a repeat of the Tory/LibDem pact with plenty more yummy austerity and excess deaths and decline of the UK for 5 years. Just what we all wanted.

BONUS! SNP in the mix to risk a proper tear up of the Union, potential hard border with Scotland, No Deal still bobbing around on the table. Yes this is much more sensible than Labour's plan of demanding No Deal off the table, or having Corbyn as caretaker PM for a measly few weeks. NEVER EVER DO THAT !!!

What happened to "bollocks to Brexit" you stupid bitch ??

Oh sorry... didn't mean to interrupt you
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HAHAHAHA pathetic meltdown.

You do realise, don't you, that Jeremy is believed to be in favour (personally) of an election?

As for a Tory/Lib-Dem pact... how could a party committed to revoking Art. 50 join with the Tories? You read that straight off McDonnell's Twitter. Engage brain.
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