EU referendum are you in or out

[gilesgoat]

And in the meantime Erdogan sends troops to Lybia to support one side of the civil war, and Italy jumps up, issues a kind of veiled threat. The two are members of NATO and Italy is a EU member.

And in France it seems that the strike against the pension reform will continue thru the New Year. At least they are trying to defend their labour rights.

Interesting, I can't find anything on some Italian news, where did you hear all that ?

Yeahp, sorry.
As Little stoned kiwi clarified Italy and Turkey are on the same side. It's Saudi Arabia and Egypt supporting the rebels. And some say France was too but they are denying it.

I don't know what's going on .. in Italy .. in general .. I really DO NOT understand/know any more what is going there .. nor even who lives in Italy it seems.

"The Italy I remember" would have said things like "we don't intervene in any war at all unless very strictly necessary/etc." .. "jumping on" the side of Erdogan that is NOT the Italy I knew.

And also "politics aside" Italy as far as I know "should not have money at all to perform such actions", where are they going to find any money at all to send "support" is a total mystery.

Italian political situation could not be more crap than what it is, to be fair I would not have voted ANY of the parties involved because NO ONE of them satisfies me not even a little, it's ALWAYS a picking of "let's hope I picked up the less dangerous shit" but we live times even that hope is GONE, any of them IS shit and could well be not just shit but "dangerous shit".

What the heck can one do ? Start ANOTHER political party that once gets "big enough" and finally "gets into Rome" gets COMPLETELY RUINED/CORRUPTED/COLLAPSED by the system in place and "becomes one of them" as well.

I don't see any future really, nor here not there, I see only "apocalypse" and I try to hope "in some way we'll pass through" not sure how, no idea how and we'll get out from there.

I lost faith in almost everything, in the politics world at least, we are not "living" we are "trying to survive the times" it's not "war" but it's close to.

I don't know, I really don't know what to think any more.

[Little stoned kiwi]

[(o)(o)]

"The Italy I remember" would have said things like "we don't intervene in any war at all unless very strictly necessary/etc." .. "jumping on" the side of Erdogan that is NOT the Italy I knew.

Didn't Mussolini jump on the Nazi bandwagon?

I don't see any future really, nor here not there, I see only "apocalypse" and I try to hope "in some way we'll pass through" not sure how, no idea how and we'll get out from there.

I lost faith in almost everything, in the politics world at least, we are not "living" we are "trying to survive the times" it's not "war" but it's close to.

I don't know, I really don't know what to think any more.

Apocalypse ..Mmmm

The perfect storm (climate change, overpopulation, overly complex financial systems collapsing and more) continues to approach, with technology helping to shape politics. People going on about Corbyn and Momentum and Labour being an electoral problem like it's the 1970s are missing the point. Corbyn isn't the problem. We are seeing sweeping far right ideologies take hold and it's running a parallel course as the storm builds ... Morrison, Duterte, Trump, Orbán, Bolsonaro, Duda, Modi, Morawiecki, Johnson... Italy is turning...

"Something has changed: not just in the UK and the US, but in many parts of the world. A new politics, funded by oligarchs, built on sophisticated cheating and provocative lies, using dark ads and conspiracy theories on social media, has perfected the art of persuading the poor to vote for the interests of the very rich. We must understand what we are facing, and the new strategies required to resist it."

We need a second tier government and economy. I'd like to decamp to Wales, form a small co-op community, grow our own food, excise as much state control as possible. Can the people take back control, before the overlords deliver martial law, chaos, attrition, apocalypse..

Occupy Movement Phase II?

[Dio]

But it's more complicated than Monbiot says, because not that many people are being tricked - many, probably most, of the people voting for Boris and Trump are perfectly aware that they're serial liars and borderline crooks.

[(o)(o)]

But it's more complicated than Monbiot says, because not that many people are being tricked - many, probably most, of the people voting for Boris and Trump are perfectly aware that they're serial liars and borderline crooks.

We can use the word conditioned if you prefer.

[Dio]

That's worse. My point is that the left has to get away from this idea that people are stupid or being blindly hoodwinked. Some probably are, yes the media is distorting the message a little, but the majority of right-wing voters - even those for whom it looks crazy on paper that they would vote right-wing - are doing it in reasonable knowledge of what they are doing and who they are voting for, if not necessarily the full consequences of the complete policy set.

For whatever reason, right-wing people and policies are a better fit to the template of what they think a government should look like. Calling them sheep is not going to help.

[PFVA]

[quote="gilesgoat"....

I don't see any future really, nor here not there, I see only "apocalypse" and I try to hope "in some way we'll pass through" not sure how, no idea how and we'll get out from there.

...

Apocalypse ..Mmmm

The perfect storm (climate change, overpopulation, overly complex financial systems collapsing and more) continues to approach, with technology helping to shape politics...

I did have an Apocalypse feeling today when watching the images from Australia. Even the more affluent and more prepared countries are not really prepared to face climate change.

[Foozwah]

I did have an Apocalypse feeling today when watching the images from Australia. Even the more affluent and more prepared countries are not really prepared to face climate change.

We would probably have been at least a bit more prepared if the last ten years weren't spent under a federal government that openly spruiks for the coal industry and does its best to deny that climate change even exists.

Would probably also be better not having a prime minister right now who actually talks in tongues at his prosperity-gospel "Jeebus wants you to be rich" megachurch every Sunday, since he is doubtless quite looking forward to apocalypse so he can be Raptured away to paradise, leaving the rest of us to burn...

[gilesgoat]

Didn't Mussolini jump on the Nazi bandwagon?

I can't remember if it was him that jumped on or Hitler that follwed up.

As far I as I remember from history studied SO long ago I think in a sense "Mussolini was first", Hitler was his best friend and for quite some time followed what Mussolini was doing.

Mussolini definitely was the first ever leader to understand the importance of "media" as instruments of political propaganda, he was praticing his talks for hours in front of mirrrors studying all his poses and ways of talking to the masses, he understood very well how to use newspapers, magazines,radio and even cinema to his advantage.

Nazism from what I remember was "National Socialism" in the beginning its idea was the one of "a strong independent nation" "a nation capable of sustain itself independent from any other nation" a sort of "utopic self contained nation capable to have all its needed resources by its own".

I can not really remember/know all the differences between Fascism and Nazism but I think both of them started spreading this idea of "the big strong independent nation" as a "model" or "reference" for other nations where "everyone lives good and happy within".

Anyway pretty soon, story tells, Mussolini was promoting himself like "a sort of protector for everyone, everyone equal/etc." but in reality he was protecting the richest and more powerful and using the "lesser classes" as labour/cannon fooder.

Also pretty soon you HAD to be Fascist, you could NOT have spread different ideas or being "something else" because there were the "Camicie Nere" coming literally to beat you up and/or maybe later even to kill you if you were contrary to the regime.

At some point in Italy "everyone was fascist" because YOU HAD NO CHOICHE, be that or leave Italy or die.

I think at some point if I remember correctly what I studied Mussolini kinda had a dream to "restore the old Roman Empire" or shit like that.

Mussolini did not "exactly jumped on the Nazi wagon" because he was "too busy" with its own Fascism, what he did want was "a power alliance" with Germany, the famous Rome-Berlin axis, he wanted the joint military power, I don't think he ever fully went into the Nazi idea, it wasn't his, in fact "the beginning of the collapse of everything" been when he agreeded to adhere to the "etnic laws" implementing some of them in Italy as well .. that's when people started to think "this is too much, this has nothing to do with 'the big nation' ".

But yes "in some ways" the initial ideas/concepts of Mussolini and the Fascism .. where "not too much different" of "some concepts spread around today" .. "the big independent self-reliant strong nation" .. you see where it goes ...

You see why some people think that Nazism/Fascism is coming back, just replace "jewish" with "anyone else foreing" ...

It's worth to remember also how Mussolini ended up, for those that don't know, killed and paraded around until hang upside down in a public square in Milan ... history does not like certain things ... "when things explode big they explode big" ..

Let's hope that history won't repeat itself .. "too much" ...

[edit]

FORGOT, IMPORTANT NOTE : in Italian school, I am NOT SO SURE HOW MUCH of WWI/WW2 history is actually teached, if ANY AT ALL.

Let's say there are probably many unwritten and even written rules of "you don't talk/teach about this".

MANY details about WW1/WW2 in Italy are still tabu, twisted, hidden, negated, put into discussion or probably NEVER put into discussion/light again.

It's a very very deep rabbit hole than the more you dig the more weird things come out.

So DO NOT expect many Italian non-present during WW1/WW2 to really know what really happened or to even ask themselves about "what happened".

[PFVA]

I did have an Apocalypse feeling today when watching the images from Australia. Even the more affluent and more prepared countries are not really prepared to face climate change.

We would probably have been at least a bit more prepared if the last ten years weren't spent under a federal government that openly spruiks for the coal industry and does its best to deny that climate change even exists.

Would probably also be better not having a prime minister right now who actually talks in tongues at his prosperity-gospel "Jeebus wants you to be rich" megachurch every Sunday, since he is doubtless quite looking forward to apocalypse so he can be Raptured away to paradise, leaving the rest of us to burn...

Unfortunately seem that there is a few of those getting elected around the world as of lately. And unfortunately too that's a way to make the problem of climate change to become really apocallyptical.

[snaff]

No. 10 is hiring:

There are many brilliant people in the civil service and politics. Over the past five months the No10 political team has been lucky to work with some fantastic officials. But there are also some profound problems at the core of how the British state makes decisions. This was seen by pundit-world as a very eccentric view in 2014. It is no longer seen as eccentric. Dealing with these deep problems is supported by many great officials, particularly younger ones, though of course there will naturally be many fears — some reasonable, most unreasonable.

Now there is a confluence of: a) Brexit requires many large changes in policy and in the structure of decision-making, b) some people in government are prepared to take risks to change things a lot, and c) a new government with a significant majority and little need to worry about short-term unpopularity while trying to make rapid progress with long-term problems.

https://dominiccummings.com/2020/01/02/ ... ssion=true

[zip accident]

No. 10 is hiring:

There are many brilliant people in the civil service and politics. Over the past five months the No10 political team has been lucky to work with some fantastic officials. But there are also some profound problems at the core of how the British state makes decisions. This was seen by pundit-world as a very eccentric view in 2014. It is no longer seen as eccentric. Dealing with these deep problems is supported by many great officials, particularly younger ones, though of course there will naturally be many fears — some reasonable, most unreasonable.

Now there is a confluence of: a) Brexit requires many large changes in policy and in the structure of decision-making, b) some people in government are prepared to take risks to change things a lot, and c) a new government with a significant majority and little need to worry about short-term unpopularity while trying to make rapid progress with long-term problems.

https://dominiccummings.com/2020/01/02/ ... ssion=true

You don't have to be mad to work there, but it might help.

[VNVObit]

That's worse. My point is that the left has to get away from this idea that people are stupid or being blindly hoodwinked. Some probably are, yes the media is distorting the message a little, but the majority of right-wing voters - even those for whom it looks crazy on paper that they would vote right-wing - are doing it in reasonable knowledge of what they are doing and who they are voting for, if not necessarily the full consequences of the complete policy set.

For whatever reason, right-wing people and policies are a better fit to the template of what they think a government should look like. Calling them sheep is not going to help.

Was listening to the end of year podcast from the Irish Times and was struck by the conversation on UK media (first 10 minutes of https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/i ... 0461181970) comparisons to other countries are not favourable

[merman]

No. 10 is hiring:

There are many brilliant people in the civil service and politics. Over the past five months the No10 political team has been lucky to work with some fantastic officials. But there are also some profound problems at the core of how the British state makes decisions. This was seen by pundit-world as a very eccentric view in 2014. It is no longer seen as eccentric. Dealing with these deep problems is supported by many great officials, particularly younger ones, though of course there will naturally be many fears — some reasonable, most unreasonable.

Now there is a confluence of: a) Brexit requires many large changes in policy and in the structure of decision-making, b) some people in government are prepared to take risks to change things a lot, and c) a new government with a significant majority and little need to worry about short-term unpopularity while trying to make rapid progress with long-term problems.

https://dominiccummings.com/2020/01/02/ ... ssion=true

Gee, who would have thought that untangling a 40-year relationship with the EU would be complex?
I mean, it's not like we had a whole Government department set up, stealing resources and staff from all the other departments for the last two and a half years, is it?

And why is an unelected advisor being given the power/opportunity to reform the Civil Service that has always been hostile to Brexit?

[phattslagg]

Because Johnson is just the front end. Cummings is our Prime Minister.