EU referendum are you in or out

[Dio]

Are you trying to make important points or throw around random insults?

[KlaxonCow]

Are you trying to make important points or throw around random insults?

I don't see that the two are necessarily mutually exclusive.

[gilesgoat]

I suppose if I am lucky my IQ could be similar of that of a goat ... .. or a clam .. or dunno .. I am very bad at tests ...

[merman]

Are you trying to make important points or throw around random insults?

It's always fun to insult Michael Goooove.

But the key points again.

- no protection for EU migrants in the UK
- no protection for child refugees
- tearing up the Freedom of Information Act
- giving MPs an extra month off this year, so fewer Select Committees and Parliamentary oversight of Brexshit.

To which I add
- Bloomberg analysts says Brexit has cost MORE SO FAR than 40+ years of EU contributions
- £120 million to be wasted on the Festival of Brexit

[gilesgoat]

Are you trying to make important points or throw around random insults?

*snip*

- £120 million to be wasted on the Festival of Brexit

WHAT ??

.. meanwhile here in Wales the local air ambulance - fundamental in a place like this - continues to live on people's donations .. the government does not pay for it ...

.. so various other services ..

Mah .. we are maybe even "past the point" of Sci-Fi .. remember years ago when you were reading those dystopian future stories in "Urania" or stuff like that .. .. here we are now ...

[merman]

Are you trying to make important points or throw around random insults?

*snip*

- £120 million to be wasted on the Festival of Brexit

WHAT ??

.. meanwhile here in Wales the local air ambulance - fundamental in a place like this - continues to live on people's donations .. the government does not pay for it ...

.. so various other services ..

Mah .. we are maybe even "past the point" of Sci-Fi .. remember years ago when you were reading those dystopian future stories in "Urania" or stuff like that .. .. here we are now ...

Someone pointed out on Twitter that Star Trek:Deep Space Nine's plot line of Sanctuary Districts in 2024 America is now looking on schedule.

When services like an Air Ambulance or children's cancer research have to beg the public for money, you know the society is in the wrong place.

[zip accident]

When services like an Air Ambulance or children's cancer research have to beg the public for money, you know the society is in the USAian place.

FTFY.

[KlaxonCow]

Are you trying to make important points or throw around random insults?

I gave a joke answer to this above but, in proper defence of merman, let's look at what he said.

First, highlighting the important points:

Parliament voted down amendments to the Brexit Bill that would have protected EU migrants' rights, and reunited refugee children with their families.

Michael "frog face" Gove is now going to tear up the Freedom of Imformation Act while Boris reduces the number of days Parliament sits. All to prevent scrutiny of how Brexit is progressing...

Now, we'll do that again, this time highlighting the random insults:

Parliament voted down amendments to the Brexit Bill that would have protected EU migrants' rights, and reunited refugee children with their families.

Michael "frog face" Gove is now going to tear up the Freedom of Imformation Act while Boris reduces the number of days Parliament sits. All to prevent scrutiny of how Brexit is progressing...

We have one random insult versus a whole raft of important points:

1. EU migrant rights will not be protected.
2. Refugee children may be separated from their families (as this right is losing legal protection).
3. They are going to limit the Freedom of Information Act - law designed for transparency in governance (and, for clarification, this is 100% a British law, introduced by Blair, and has NOTHING to do with any imposition on our law by the EU).
4. Boris - who has already been caught lying to Parliament and the Queen, and had his decision to prorogue unanimously rescinded on the spot - now wants to play more games in silencing his opposition.
5. The overall point that 3 and 4 represent parts of a concerted effort to nullify Parliament and legal scrutiny of the Brexit process, because 1 and 2 are morally deplorable (and while 1 can be argued to be "EU law imposed on Britain" - though, not really, we did join the EU voluntarily - the same can't be said for 2, which breaches our own British law from before we joined the EU and the internationally agreed principles of seeking asylum from genuine harm).

So, to explain what I said in jest earlier, but this time with serious clarification, it is entirely possible - as we've seen here - that you can literally throw a random insult while making important points. The two are literally not mutually exclusive.

And the prohibition of "ad hominem", due to it being a logical fallacy, does not hold for all insults given. Sometimes insults ARE the important point.

For example, Trump is a narcissistic idiot.

In that case, the insult IS the important point. A narcissistic idiot is President of the United States of America, and is in possession of the nuclear launch codes, with executive power to start wars as Commander-in-Chief.

The insult IS the important point.

Or, flipping that over, the important point that needs to be made here is something that Trump might well find an insult to his personal character. But what can I say? He can suck on his thumb and think happy thoughts until he gets over feeling an emotional "boo boo" from the nasty man who's calling him a retard. Because the important point needs to be made, regardless of whether any particular person feels insulted by it or not.

But it's not "ad hominem". Not in that case.

Now, what merman did does qualify, as the fact that Michael Gove has a frog face and looks like Pob is logically unrelated to the important points being made. It's a logical fallacy because it does not logically follow - it's a non-sequitur - that his frog face has anything to do with these important points of legislation.

But my important point that Trump is a narcissistic idiot is technically NOT "ad hominem". My important point does logically follow from the stated fact that he's a moron - he's incompetent, doesn't know what he's doing, and there's a real possibility of him launching war and engaging in other mad foreign policy, just because someone called him an "orange man" or a orangutan wearing an unconvincing blonde wig on Twitter. He could quite genuinely send all life on Earth down the toilet bowl, because the rich spoilt brat has never faced true criticism - or been unable to seek petty revenge through the family billions - to be mentally immunised from the concept that other people can and will have different views of the world to you, and might not like you.

So, on both levels - that of it being literally possible to deliver both random insult AND important points simultaneously (as I would suggest merman entirely did), and also of the idea that it's not "ad hominem" (and therefore prohibited from logical debate) when the insult itself IS the important point - they are not mutually exclusive.

They are not mutually exclusive in tandem - you can deliver both insult and good point at the same time - and they are not internally mutually exclusive either - something that someone finds insulting can, nevertheless, be entirely true and raises a genuinely important point.

(I'm actually often jealous of merman, in a certain regard, as he's always been able to deliver his important points in a very concise and to-the-point manner, that I - as we all are aware - am completely unable to do)

[Dio]

That the President of the USA is a nepotistic liar is relevant to his ability to be a politician. Whatever Michael Gove resembles, it doesn't affect his (lack of) ability as a politician.

See what I did there? I succeeded in saying "Michael Gove is useless" without demeaning the message by implying that I cared about his appearance. Personal attacks weaken the message, not strengthen it.

[tufty]

… sez you, big nose!

:)

[skab]

But what can I say? He can suck on his thumb and think happy thoughts.

Sucking Trump's thumb wouldn't satisfy anyone, since it's way too short.

[merman]

That the President of the USA is a nepotistic liar is relevant to his ability to be a politician. Whatever Michael Gove resembles, it doesn't affect his (lack of) ability as a politician.

See what I did there? I succeeded in saying "Michael Gove is useless" without demeaning the message by implying that I cared about his appearance. Personal attacks weaken the message, not strengthen it.

If I say - Mark Francois MP is suffering from "small man syndrome" and tries to make up for it by appearing tough even when he has the brains of a bowl of tapioca, I would hope people on this forum understood I am attacking the man.

If I say - Mark "Little Englander" Francois is conning people into coughing up money to make Big Ben bong on January 31st to mark Brexit, even when the Parliamentary sub-committee in charge of Big Ben's refurbishment say it isn't going to happen, then I'm sure people will realise I am attacking the policy and idea. As well as mocking a politician who is seriously out of his depth.

[merman]

They should have just called it the "Brexit 25p", because that's how much it will be worth the minute the currency speculators start shorting the Pound...

[merman]

Right-wing thugs giving Nazi salutes in Parliament Square - there to protect the statues, innit?

Who would have guessed having a racist liar as PM - on the back of the slogan "Get Brexit Done" - would have led to racists feeling safe...

[Cloudane]

The cat's well out of the bag now. Between here and that twat in the States, Nazism having a free voice in the west is the "New Normal"