Coronavirus Pandemic

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Dio
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Re: Coronavirus Pandemic

Post by Dio »

rowan wrote:Yeah, surviving covid infection gives way better + longer protection than the vaccines from what [little] I gather.
I've seen mixed reports on that. Notably, a lot of the work was done in the US where the short gap between doses led to weaker pre-booster protection than our longer gap.

But it's certainly highly likely that if it's going to send you to intensive care, it's going to do it first time, unless your general health deteriorates very dramatically between the two.
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Re: Coronavirus Pandemic

Post by rowan »

KlaxonCow wrote:
Rhythm wrote:I work for a large US insurance company and they're so happy with WFH that they've just sold off their headquarters and are looking to get rid of more of their office buildings.

Some of the Covid changes are here to stay, for sure
Yeah, and that's what I was alluding to.

There are businesses out there who are very much taking advantage of not having to pay big rents on just housing people in cubicles unnecessarily.

And, well, we've talked about natural selection in terms of the virus, but let's remember that natural selection applies to anything that reproduces and is selected for. That there is "memetic evolution" as well as the genetic kind.

So, you know, if we pit the company that's given up the office (or, at least, greatly downsized the office - you could keep a small "base of operations" with meeting rooms and such, of course) and is saving a fortune on rents, yet is as productive as it's ever been, against the company that's staying "traditional" and paying a fortune in office space, simply to house people sitting in cubicles, who's going to have the bigger profits? Who's going to be more agile to changing circumstances? Who's going to be selected for?

It was forced on us. But the model proved itself. It absolutely can work - and where it does work, then it'll thrive. And it provides a competitive advantage.

No, I'm not expecting some magical revolution of things. But some tectonic plates shifted underneath us, and some of these changes will prove permanent.
I work for a large US company also but our CIO's against vaccination [I don't think an actual antivax loon, just won't have it herself] and amidst all the cries of "can we carry on working from home?" her stance is "we are aiming for a hybrid of 3 days in the office, 2 from home max".

No idea why she's so against, maybe she has a nice view or feels important there.
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Re: Coronavirus Pandemic

Post by zip accident »

What are the reasons for an exception, not counting being good at tennis?
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Re: Coronavirus Pandemic

Post by The ghost of raids past »

The Australians should have had a backbone and kicked Novak Djokovic out of the country. He has clearly lied about his movements prior to going to Australia. Any one anti Vax should be made to feel very uncomfortable. if you dont a valid Medical reason then you should not be allowed to take part in society without a vaccination.

Tired of pussy footing around these morons. Get vaccinated.
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Re: Coronavirus Pandemic

Post by merman »

Dio wrote:
merman wrote:9% of people eligible for a first dose of vaccine still haven’t had it.

No way are we getting to full immunity.
The disease is a highly effective vaccine, right? The number of unvaccinated people who haven't had covid yet is probably down under couple of percent. If it wasn't, the hospital situation would have been dire at 50k cases a week (as it was in January 2021), not still been coping at 300k+.

We hit effectively full immunity at some point between end Jan and the start of the summer. Probably earlier rather than later.
Initially it was thought being infected gave better immunity. But longer term research now shows that vaccination is more effective. And why would you risk becoming seriously ill and disabled?
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Dio
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Re: Coronavirus Pandemic

Post by Dio »

I wouldn't, but lots of people have made that choice, and if they didn't actually get seriously ill, they generally don't in the future because they are now largely immune.

Anyway, the key point is that either way we get to 99%+ with immunity some time in the next few months.
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Re: Coronavirus Pandemic

Post by NorthWay »

Hm. The papers just today had a story about a Danish woman who had gotten the virus for the third time now. Two of those had been before any vaccines were available.
I wish I knew more about the chances of it re-igniting instead of fizzling out.
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Re: Coronavirus Pandemic

Post by Dio »

It is never going away. The vaccines can't completely prevent infection over extended periods and there are massive animal reservoirs (30% of American deer tested have antibodies to it, according to one report I read). People will get infected by this thing once a year forever. But very few will die of it once everyone has had it once.
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Re: Coronavirus Pandemic

Post by Rhythm »

Dio wrote:It is never going away. The vaccines can't completely prevent infection over extended periods and there are massive animal reservoirs (30% of American deer tested have antibodies to it, according to one report I read). People will get infected by this thing once a year forever. But very few will die of it once everyone has had it once.
I've seen the studies detailing the cognitive decline in post-Covid population (even amongst asymptomatic and mild cases) - I wonder if this will be an aggregate thing, where each reinfection pushes people further away from their mental norm.
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Re: Coronavirus Pandemic

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Someone last week claimed to me that 60% of people have long covid ACCORDING TO SCIENCE (links on medrxiv and everything).

But given that I'm not actually sure I know anyone who hasn't had it by this point, and absolutely none of those who were vaccinated have lingering effects, that and similar prognostications of mild covid leading to the long term doom of the human race are so far failing the sniff test.

I'm certain that personally my mental and physical faculties are fine.
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Re: Coronavirus Pandemic

Post by Ollie »

Dio wrote:It is never going away. The vaccines can't completely prevent infection over extended periods and there are massive animal reservoirs (30% of American deer tested have antibodies to it, according to one report I read). People will get infected by this thing once a year forever. But very few will die of it once everyone has had it once.
It's already more common than the common cold. Some researchers are saying it's the most infectious respiratory virus ever. So, yeah, I don't think it's going anywhere.
Dio wrote:Someone last week claimed to me that 60% of people have long covid ACCORDING TO SCIENCE (links on medrxiv and everything).
2%, I think, according to ONS data. 1 in 50 people is still shitloads of people, though.
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Re: Coronavirus Pandemic

Post by Mayhem »

Dio wrote:But given that I'm not actually sure I know anyone who hasn't had it by this point
Myself and the missus. LFT, PCR, antibody tests. As far as we can tell, neither of us has had it.
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Re: Coronavirus Pandemic

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Ollie wrote:It's already more common than the common cold. Some researchers are saying it's the most infectious respiratory virus ever.
It's almost as though it was engineered in a lab...

https://twitter.com/tony_vandongen/stat ... 87872?s=10
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101 ... 4.472632v1
https://harvard2thebighouse.substack.co ... -covid-19s
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Re: Coronavirus Pandemic

Post by F-ZeroOne »

Heres the drawback to acquiring "immunity" through catching Covid - according to latest figures from New York, the unvaccinated are 13 times more likely to to be hospitilised. In Ohio, its sixteen times, and they're twenty-one times more likely to die from it. And because the hospitals are full of Covid sufferers, other normal hospital tasks get put on hold which means that if you have a medical issue that requires hospitalisation, you're more likely to suffer complications or death as a result. This is from John Scalzi, who no isn't a medical expert but a science fiction author, but presumably he got it from official sources:

https://whatever.scalzi.com/2022/01/13/ ... on-update/

Could Covid have been engineered in a lab? Its a possibility. Its a pretty damn poor bio-weapon though. And I'm sorry, but pretty much everyone that I've seen proposing that idea strikes me as not being overly unbiased.
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Re: Coronavirus Pandemic

Post by KlaxonCow »

Dio wrote:I'm certain that personally my mental and physical faculties are fine.
I actually caught it from natural infection - and suffered Long Covid - and I can tell you that I'm not at all certain that my mental faculties are entirely fine.

I mean, generally, they are.

But I have had moments of feeling a lack of "presence" (I mean that in the VR sense - like I don't quite feel like I'm there, slightly disconnected and "a step back" from reality). I also realise that this could be a description of anxiety / depression symptoms (though depression is commonly seen as "being sad", it's actually better described as a disconnection - not being able to connect or give a shit about things).

But this tallies with the study that had it that those who suffered from Covid (from natural infection) had a significantly higher chance of suffering from anxiety / depression afterwards.

In a sense, what you're saying is that the vaccines work. And they do.

But this speaks nothing of those who're unvaccinated. Or those who've been vaccinated but it didn't work - in the sense that, even with the third booster jab, it's still only estimated to be 70% effective against Omicron. And, in that number, we have to also include those who can't be reliably vaccinated (immuno-compromised).

And we have to see just how much Omicron has "gone boom" (these are world figures):

Image

Like, look at this surge at the end. It's dwarfing everything we've ever previously seen in the last two years.

The good news is that the deaths graph - which is the same scale on the x axis, for comparison - hasn't seemingly budged, despite the explosion in cases. Indeed, it's kind of unaffected and continuing its steady slow decline.

And, yes, that's good news.

But, equally, the bad news is that the more cases there are, the more chance there is of brewing up yet more variants. In which case, that Omicron "spike" there is a very big problem.

And variants remain a problem. They really do.

Omicron itself proves that point. After all, we were all double jabbed and we were being promised a normal Christmas. We were on the way out. Then - bang! - Omicron strikes.

And then we need a third "booster" jab for the whole adult population (the boosters initially were only going to be for the most vulnerable) in a rush, because being double jabbed was suddenly not good enough. Indeed, when you get your third jab, you're "boosted" up to 70% protection.

And, like, 70% protection is not exactly amazing. That's 30% not-protection, which is almost a third. I mean, without the third jab, protection is much lower again - so that's why we all needed the third jab and you should get your booster jab. But, again, you're boosted up to 70%. While the vaccines were initially 90+% protection for the original strain.

That's quite a decline. Every new variant, though, will tend to do this. Slowly chip away at the vaccine efficacy. It's working its way, bit by bit, towards "vaccine escape".

So the vaccines work. But they increasingly work less well as the variants keep coming.

And with cases through the roof with Omicron, the virus is now getting to roll those "mutation dice" three times more often than it ever has.

Omicron itself shows us the problem. We had everyone double-jabbed - with quite a lot of natural infection too for natural immunity - and had built up quite the "immunity wall"... against the original strain, Alpha and (somewhat) Delta.

But Omicron could happily smash through that "immunity wall" without much problem, so - shit! - we need to get everyone in the world jabbed up a third time (and, even then, only to ~70% protection levels, which isn't amazing).

I mean, that's the thing. We're boosting up to 70%. So we were clearly significantly lower than 70% on just double jabs. You can see exactly why we definitely needed boosters. Because, yeah, if the "immunity wall" was only, say, 40% / 50% protective than that's shit and nowhere near good enough to keep Omicron in check at all.

The point is that this is a double-edged sword. There are aspects of Omicron that, undoubtedly, are good news. The biggest of which is that, despite that almighty massive spike in cases, it really hasn't touched the deaths graph.

And you can dig down to individual countries to see that's generally the pattern everywhere - except that it's not so much true in the countries with much lower vaccination rates, which suggests that, yes, it's the vaccines that are doing this. In the world graph and the UK graph (and much of the European graphs I've checked), then the "spikes" aren't really touching the deaths graph at all. There's, like, no reaction in the death graph to the existence of Omicron. That's massively good news (I was basically the first person on this thread to issue that potential good news with Omicron). But if you look at South Africa and other not-so-well-vaccinated countries, then there is a spike in deaths corresponding to Omicron - far, far less than any previous wave, thankfully, but it is there.

Basically, yes, the vaccines work. For the vaccinated, Omicron really has broken the link to hospitalisations and deaths.

BUT that doesn't hold for the unvaccinated. It might not hold so well for those who are vaccinated, but fall the wrong side of that "70% protected". And then there are those who cannot be vaccinated (immuno-compromised).

And if all these cases brew up a new variant, then the effectiveness of our current "immunity wall" could simply be by-passed and smashed down. As Omicron actually did - necessitating a new wave of jabs - but, thankfully, this variant hasn't been going after deaths.

I'm not here to either be "the prophet of doom" nor to "do a Boris" and be so enthusiastically optimistic about it all, as to be inevitably wrong.

We have to look at the good news and the bad news. Omicron has brought much good news. But also some bad.

Because - sorry to be the broken record - but cases DO matter. And, boy, has Omicron brought us an explosion of cases.

Mutation is random. So we could get lucky that, even with such a massive spike, we don't get any new "variant of concern". That could totally happen.

But it's a dice roll. A dice roll whether a new "variant of concern" will brew up (in a sense, with numbers like this, variants will definitely happen - as they always do - but it's, of course, the significantly different variants - Delta, Omicron - that change the nature of the game that we focus on). And a dice roll as to the characteristics that any new variant rolls up.

There is the thing that, generally, viruses will tend towards more transmission and less lethality - because a virus is trying to thrive, and is not actually trying to kill us and it's actually bad for the virus if it's killing too many of us too quickly, as it'll run out of hosts to infect - but it's not guaranteed that the next "variant of concern" necessarily immediately conforms to that.

Basically, there are two "forces" going on. Mutation is random. Natural selection is non-random. Mutation is flying off in random directions, then natural selection tidies up after it - narrows it down, cleans up the failures, "rewards" what works and "punishes" what doesn't. Evolution is kind of a tug-of-war between those two things.

Natural selection says that going towards "more transmission, less lethality" is a good thing. But mutation is just completely random. It's not listening to anyone. it could go in any random direction whatsoever - mutation is a "copying mistake", essentially, so it's governed by nothing but pure blind random chance. Then natural selection works on that and "tidies it up" afterwards.

Variants will, inevitably, tend towards that "more transmission, less lethality" because natural selection will select for that. But the variant-to-variant mutation? Completely a dice roll.

So, yes, many variants later, we'll have the "mild" endemic virus that Omicron has began to promise. But there's no guarantees that the next one after Omicron necessarily follows Omicron's pattern. Natural selection wants to take this down this path, but each individual variant itself might not comply (but, eventually, natural selection will win the battle over time, hence saying that it will eventually inevitably get there - but it could be a drunken wandering path, with dead-ends and doubling-back, to get there).

Is it good or is it bad?

Well, yes, it is. Neither pessimism nor optimism are automatically correct. There is good news and bad news here. Hopefully, though, the good news wins out - and it very well could actually do so, if things trot along as we see things now.

So, yes, we see the green shoots of recovery. And, barring alarms and surprises (e.g. a new "variant of concern" that decides to - again, like Omicron did - change all the rules), this goes down the optimistic path. But it might not.

And that's not "the prophet of doom" - as I'm mostly optimistic, like Dio - but just, you know, correctly caveating it all with the "...and this is how it could go wrong from here" conditionals that it needs to have.

Once more for the road: Cases DO matter.
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