What would signify the arrival of the next games gen 4 you?

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arron
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Post by arron »

gravy wrote:And the production value stuff that people are looking for is more interesting to me as that's something I'm working on right now :D
Hay, can I help? ;)

Gaming for me has gone to mere playing to understanding. I tend to spend more of my time working out how to do things or understanding how things work in other games than playing them for fun as it were. For me, the entertainment is in the creation..rather than the final cutscene at the end. I guess that I'm just weird full stop..
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Post by Kemper_Boyd »

koworld wrote: a) predicatble and b) broadly dependent on Moore's law.
Several thousand engineers would disagree. :)

a) The predictability of future IC performance is going right out the
window. Clock speed isn't scaling the way it used to, the increase in
transistors isn't leading to a proportional increase in peformance,
heat is becoming a very big problem at the high end.

b) Moore's Law is not a 'law' but an observation, which in itself only held
broadly true because organsitations like SEMATECH incorporated the
predictions into their reasearch and development plans. i.e. It became
a self-fullfilling prophecy. Moore simply observed that the number of
transistors in a low-cost IC was doubling roughly every 12 months
which he later revised to two years. It's held true for many years because
in the early days it was easy to improve IC production, and laterly it
became the target to reach at all costs, now though nature is getting in
the way of future progress. You can only send a signal so fast, more
and more of the current you put in leaks away from the circuit and produces
heat, you can't scale transistors down indefinitely (quantum effects start kicking
in). On top of the physical effects there are associated circuit problems, memory
is realtively slower and slower to computation, circuits have become more
complicated to overcome physical effects (wire delay, clock skew, leakage),
high performance is requiring increasingly complex circuits to avoid bottle-necks
and stalling.

Any how the long and the short of it is that the kind of annual improvements that
people have come to expect are no longer panning out and other directions are
being sought ASAP. One of which would be Cell for the PS3... which I may
expand upon later with my 3rd/4th hand knowledge of it. :)
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Post by aurora »

Well, I don't whether it'll be the *next* big thing, but it's inevitable in the evolution of videogaming that at some stage we'll trade in our pseudo-3D monitor gaming for the true 3D experience via some sort of eye device (goggles, helmet, etc).

I guess that'll happen about the same time that decent 3D TV really makes its presence felt.
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Post by koworld »

Kemper_Boyd wrote:
koworld wrote: a) predicatble and b) broadly dependent on Moore's law.
Several thousand engineers would disagree. :)
But that's because they are engineers. The punters, the mugs actually buying games, know that things are going to keep looking a bit 'nicer' year-in, year-out. It's the engineers (and too often game journos) who think that's important, the majority of punters, beyond the tiny number who still read game mags (100,000? 200,000? Still not many) don't.

What I'm saying is 'okay, so polys and frame rates are going to keep improving. Big deal - whatcha gonna show me that makes me get off my arse, turn off big brother and play a game?
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Post by arron »

koworld wrote:What I'm saying is 'okay, so polys and frame rates are going to keep improving. Big deal - whatcha gonna show me that makes me get off my arse, turn off big brother and play a game?
Well, how about games with drugs attached? Keep people hooked in several ways, so they cannot drop the game without going through cold turkey ;) If people wind up in a pub watching Sky Sports, then I guess the combination of alcohol and bland television must appeal to someone for that reason.. ;)

For me, I think that it both the ability to fiddle with the environment and also the intellectual challenge of overcoming problems that makes a game for me. You could present me with a command line prompt as a starting point for a game, and I'd try and explore for there to see what the game is about and crack any problems that I'd find along the way.

Games have a gameplay challenge coupled with a simplistic interface, but they haven't really gone up that much in intellectual challenge. Imagine a game where you had to work multi-dimensionally - so you control several entities in the same game environment at the same time. I'm not talking command and conqueur here, more like doing Lord of the Rings by controlling the actions of Frodo, Sam, Gandalf, Aragorn and the other hobbits in such a way that you can affect the path of your other selves in the game. If Gandalf had failed to escape Saramans Tower, then he could not have saved the party from the Balrog, Had an effect at Helm's Deep..or helped sculpt the events at Minas Tirith..and so another path would have to have been found, which might or might not have resulted in the End of Sauron.

If Aragorn had not ridden out to confront the Orcs, then Frodo's task of crossing through the Orc camp would have been very difficult...perhaps not impossible, but heading that way. You swap control of the characters in such a way that you have control of them in linear time - you could play Frodo for the morning, then play Aragorn for the same amount of time..not as a linear plot, but developing the story according to the events that affect all player entities at the same time.

I guess that's how my mind gets it's kicks.. :)
Last edited by arron on Thu Jun 10, 2004 11:03 am 0, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by GeeZa »

It's true that the technology curve is flattening. This has become particularly apparent in the last 24months or so with a move to multi-threading/multi-processing. It means that technology horsepower cannot drive the games any longer imo because single chips are not delivering the startling speed we thought they would. I personally am no longer impressed by graphics, and this after over 20 years of video gaming. I'm at that point now.

So the focus for next-gen, in my view, has to be in three key areas:

i) Innovative gameplay ideas.
ii) Interoperable hardware and (WiFi) mobile devices.
iii) Human Computer Interface (that old chesnut).

Focus on these three, and bring along with it the natural improvements in gfx/sound capability and production values, and you have next-gen. I believe the Dreamcast hinted at it (Modems, VMU), as do aspects of the GameCube (GBA linkages, Portable) and Xbox (Live. Emulation). But none of them honestly take the potential to the next stage. The next-gen consoles are beginning to bore me already, and I mean that. Unless they deliver something very different to what I as a gamesplayer have experienced from the Dreamcast onwards, I will probably opt-out of games altogether.

The recent handheld announcements from Sony and Ninty are steps in the right direction. Certainly they have the potential to move the above three points further forward. I'm imagining cool interaction with various client-server type of games-dedicated devices, exciting new game genres and exciting new ways to play. Whether we'll see these, who knows. I hope we do.
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Post by fihu »

When running down a forrest hill, I'd like to see my character gaining speed, finally too fast to stop, tripping, buring his face in the dirt. I bet this doesnt happen in Far Cry, does it?

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Post by highlandcattle »

limb_clock wrote:Vib Ribbon 2. THat game is the shiznits.
enter vib ripple

http://game-science.com/news/000444.html
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Post by Kemper_Boyd »

Ha ha, perfect timing.

Moore's law running out of steam:
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=16503

Anyhow the point I was previously making is that the conventional
computer architecture that we've been used to for the last couple
of decades is turning out to be a bit of a dead end, as Geeza rightly
points out we'll see widespread adoption of multi-threaded and
multi-processor ICs. This is interesting (IMHO) for two reasons,
firstly we may see a big jump in performace for the first generation
or two of such processors, and secondly programming them is
going to be a bitch.

But what does that have to do with games? Well I think the next
generation or two may well be a bigger step than many expect,
and secondly I think that many developers will struggle to use
the extra performance. I think that there will be a wider gulf
than ever before between the best and worst games, at least
from a technical point of view. What's more we may well be
well into the next-generation of games consoles before we
see a game that truely exploits the capabilites. Take a look
at Direct3d 9.0, how many games are out there that really
use it? Not many and yet that API is damn near two years
old and builds directly upon the previous generation, apply
that sort of delay to consoles development, and factor in
a far more radical change to the hardware and a huge
problem in itself of building very high quality art. I think it'll be
a while before a true next-gen games turns ups.
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Post by Perkunas »

Kemper_Boyd wrote: Moore's law running out of steam:
Wait untill we get Intel's optic processing. :lol:
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Post by bloid »

koworld wrote:What I'm saying is 'okay, so polys and frame rates are going to keep improving. Big deal - whatcha gonna show me that makes me get off my arse, turn off big brother and play a game?
When the Sims is like Big Brother?

[geordie accent]

Week 86...and Big Brother has filled the house with Squid and custard

[/geordie accent]

Which one's hard punch?
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Post by SimonB »

Jumping in hellishly late (well, I've been busy!).

Arrival of next gen for me will be signified by current gen coming down to a price where I feel I can justify buying more than three games a year...
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Post by teamonkey »

Kemper_Boyd wrote: But what does that have to do with games? Well I think the next
generation or two may well be a bigger step than many expect,
and secondly I think that many developers will struggle to use
the extra performance.
I think we're going to see a massive increase in the use of middleware. Tools more advanced than the current generation of game engines, but proper tools that make it easy to create your vision. Game development in future will be more like modding, but with the flexibility to tailor it to your own vision. People just need to let go of the control aspect.

I think we'll also see the smaller indie companies developing their games with the larger companies more and more, for financial and technical support and for access to their tools and resources. Games companies will also start using the financing model used for films, where they start a limited liability company solely for the purpose of developing a game. I think smaller developers should be doing that already, frankly.
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Post by GeeZa »

What could be better than a YakYak meet in a pub, everyone bringing along their Sony/Ninty handheld, and after a few drinks, we play some five-a-side Winning Eleven10, all WiFi'd up?? :D

Then a quick team match-up on Halo2-Hand-held. Maybe even an F-Zero blast. The losing side buys the next round.

This type of portable, instant-LAN enjoyment would be *new*.
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Post by Elizian »

Old_but_still_a_kid wrote:ok ok i know im new here and all that ... and then a lot of other stuff that I shall read later
Welcome, Old_but_still_a_kid, to the Image fluffiest Image forum Image in town :camel:

:sheepyspace: Ermm ... not wishing to pry but what do you call "old"? :camel:

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Last edited by Elizian on Thu Jun 10, 2004 10:51 pm 0, edited 1 time in total.
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